Re: Concussions in Sports

May 10th, 2011, 12:11 pm

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Mr-914
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We have the technology. Alpine Star is debuting a line of riding gear with airbags. They can be repacked and re-used, unlike an automotive airbag. Dianese has a similar system:

http://www.dainese.com/index.php/wd_fr/d-air

pier: the only problem with your logic is the only people that get hurt from these injuries are the athlete and their agent. The teams have ways of getting out of the contracts and fresh meat waiting for a chance on the sideline. Just ask Steve Moore.
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Re: Concussions in Sports

May 10th, 2011, 12:47 pm

vapor
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haha.. nothing against big bert, he's just the first that came to mind. its kind of funny how huge his gloves are to protect his hands, but he wears a small or medium size helmet.

i would say that it's incorrect that only the athlete and the agent are hurt by an injury though; the Penguins, fans, and i would argue the entire NHL are hurting from Sidney Crosby being out with a concussion since new years. We've had plenty of NHL brass come asking for more protective gear to protect their assets, but the resistance is from the athletes.. they're are grown men though, they make their own decisions.

Re: Concussions in Sports

May 10th, 2011, 3:02 pm

joyride
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Hockey helmets are not HECC? I thought that they had to be? Whats the round sticker on the back? This is an interesting topic to me as I have been researching getting a new helmet. My helmet is so old that all the text has faded and the 'padding' is pretty much gone.

I have noticed a pretty large change in the technology since I bought my last helmet (2000). Im not sure if it helps, but most have multi-density foams and the fit seems to be tighter. I can rattle my helmet around by shaking my head (which probably isnt a good thing). I've been concussed a few times and KO'ed about 3 (even had the cage bolts pull out from the backside when hit from behind into the boards).

To be honest, I dont think you will ever be able to get the pros to really add more padding. Look at what happend to Franzen a few weeks ago (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVAr1HY0iBQ). When he returned in the 3rd, he didnt even have a face shield. Babcock obviously mentioned it to him, but he obviously didnt want it. This behavior goes all the way down to the amateur level. Look how long it took them to actually mandate helmets.

I dont know where I saw the concept, but there was a helmet that had a 'break-away' design. In an event of head trauma, the EMT could cut a wire that ran though sections of the helmet. This lets them remove the helmet in sections without having to really move the head, which could cause more injury.

Re: Concussions in Sports

May 10th, 2011, 3:13 pm

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Mr-914
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Hockey is especially bad...this is a sport that had to mandate helmets but grandfathered the older players (!!!). Also, they played from 184x-1960 without the goalies wearing helmets. WTF makes a grown human stand in front of a frozen rubber puck flying at 160 km/h without head protection!?!?!

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Grandpa Craig MacTavish

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"wussy" Jacques Plante using a mask to protect his broken nose. What a wuss!
Ray Jepson

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Re: Concussions in Sports

May 10th, 2011, 6:01 pm

vapor
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@joyride, the helmets are HECC approved but HECC doesn't test the helmet on whether it can reduce the chance of concussion.

ive seen a puck cannon shoot at 105 mph... the level of violence when you're watching it up close is shocking.

Re: Concussions in Sports

May 10th, 2011, 9:57 pm

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oneonine
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vapor wrote: there's a company that came out with a helmet they claimed would reduce the chance of concussion, but they've since had to change their PR angle after the better business bureau couldn't find any proof in their advertising claims, and specified that they can't imply that the helmet does anything in that regard.
I'm guessing you mean the cascade helmet. I will be upfront in stating I've worked with the company- but their tech is worlds better than the EPP or other foam in competing helmets, and has a total reset vs. foam where the product loses effectiveness with every impact. I've watched and heard stories from them as the massive giant of head protection in hockey, Nike Bauer, basically tries to bury the small guy who invents the better product though litigation and not so honest advertising. I don't recall them ever changing their approach in selling the helmet or advertising.

So anyways I came here to post about the cascade liner and not defend them as a company- its basically an array of elastomer shock absorbers, they used in lacrosse helmets first, and is the sort of thing I wish I thought of because its so simple but works. http://www.cascadeicehockey.com/the-technology.html

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Re: Concussions in Sports

May 11th, 2011, 7:44 am

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grimble: Cool company & technology. I love simple but effective designs like that.
Ray Jepson

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Re: Concussions in Sports

May 11th, 2011, 10:37 am

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linyee
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Virginia Tech - Wake Forest just published their rankings of football helmets for the national impact database.

http://www.sbes.vt.edu/nid.php

Re: Concussions in Sports

May 11th, 2011, 11:11 am

funkify
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I recently listened to a Frontline episode that was about high school footbal that spoke about concussion and head trauma amongst other things. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/football-high/.

Re: Concussions in Sports

May 11th, 2011, 11:40 am

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jon_winebrenner
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funkify wrote:I recently listened to a Frontline episode that was about high school footbal that spoke about concussion and head trauma amongst other things. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/football-high/.
I'm only 15 minutes into listening to this...and it scares the hell out of me.

The big thing about concussions, and all the talk about how "the players won't wear the helmets", etc. is that when we talk about "the players" we're talking about the Pros. The Bertuzzis of the world won't wear a chin strap.

The real problem is that before they become professionals, they are kids. 13 & 14 year olds smashing into each other without the coordination, or size (yet?) to protect themself from that monster of a kid with an anger problem that will have no problem smashing him/her into oblivion.

I have 2 young kids and this truly scares the crap out of me. I played football, and I hated it. I was too much of a wuss to make it in that kind of sport. Which is why I ran :) But, really...it is way different now than it was in the 80s. As a culture, we've gotten to be insane about sport and our attraction to the glory of it all, that a few concussions are "worth it".

Re: Concussions in Sports

May 11th, 2011, 12:01 pm

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Mr-914
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Jon: They did teach you to lead with your shoulder, right?

Part of any sport is proper technique. A friend of mine has been taking kung-fu classes for a year and has barely ever practiced one-on-one. The teacher wants to make sure a student understands the technique before practicing on another person, where bad technique can lead to injury. Even running with the wrong technique can lead to leg injuries.

Back to equipment though, it's strange in hockey that players are required to where full face masks up until the pros (18 years old), yet no one wears a full face in the NHL. Sometimes a mandate is the only thing that can change behaviour.

Moreover, it seems like in hockey, the problems aren't just concussion but controlling neck movement. That's what happened to Steve Moore, he fractured 2-3 vertebrae. No helmet can eliminate this problem.
Ray Jepson

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Re: Concussions in Sports

May 11th, 2011, 12:04 pm

joyride
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I was actually thinking that same thing IP. I think high impact sports in general will have to take a look at how they can change the root of the problem. By creating these more protective objects, it seems like we are just trying to minimize the damage (while allowing the root cause to continue) and not do anything to actually stop it outright. I just noticed that the US hockey association is having a re-evaluation of the checking age in order to allow the players to mature a bit before slamming into each other. They are looking at changing it from Peewee (12 and under) to Bantam (14 and under). There is more detail about the changes and why they need to evaluate it here: http://www.usahockey.com//Template_Usah ... &ID=299508 It will be interesting to see how this will effect the injury rates and also the competitiveness against other countries players.

Re: Concussions in Sports

May 11th, 2011, 12:19 pm

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jon_winebrenner
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Mr-914 wrote:Jon: They did teach you to lead with your shoulder, right?
Uh...not really. Yes, you were "supposed to", but if you could hurt the other guy. Watch/listen to that Frontline report. It is the same thing being said in there. "We know its wrong to lead with your head, but that's how you inflict damage and sometimes you have to beat your opponent into submission" (not a direct quote, but a paraphrase/amalgamation of several interviews in the show).

But, let's say that every kids in the world is taught to "lead with their shoulder". At 12, 13, 14 yrs old, you don't have the coordination yet to do so. You're going to stumble, have miscues, whatever.

There's a report discussed in the show about how it isn't about concussions, but the repeated impact is causing degenerative damage to the brain. The comparison made was to a rotator cuff injury. How over time, your joint just wears out. They're now starting to say that hit after hit has a cumulative effect that in turn creates mini tears in your brain that contributes to depression, suicide, and other evil maladies.

Re: Concussions in Sports

May 11th, 2011, 12:24 pm

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Mr-914
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IP: I can't wait to see the documentary.

As a side note, I'm glad that I've avoided nearly any wear & tear on body by being lazy. hehe
Ray Jepson

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Re: Concussions in Sports

May 14th, 2011, 10:56 am

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IP: now that I saw that Frontline, I understand what you mean. It seems like design probably can't do much here. The game is just so dangerous. Maybe the only thing we could do is go to leather helmets. If it hurt to hit their heads, maybe the game would change. It would be interesting to see how rugby compares with injuries.

Also, let's not forget the other football. I've heard that headers in soccer are just as bad. Any good soccer player will practice a ton of headers also.
Ray Jepson

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