Re: How cool is that?

July 30th, 2009, 5:01 am

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nunoCR
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I'm positive that there are at least enough resources to end hunger.
mgnt8 wrote:It's nice to imagine that, if we all could just agree to share everything, we'd all end up with what we need. This just isn't realistic. We would then really have shortages.
I'm not following you on this one, please elaborate.
the way I see it, if you have 1 cake and you throw a party with 20 people, you're going to have to share that cake with those 20 people, just the general idea. If you don't, you're going to lose friends :P.
mgnt8 wrote:Scarcity and uneven distribution of resources is not something that comes about intentionally as if by some cartel of capitalists conspiring to pollute the world.
Not the rule for most people but it happens a lot. It is profitable for resources to be scarce. If a company can convince the public that their product is “rare”, the more they can charge for that product. Like Ferraris for example, no reason why they can't build a million of them, would it be good for them? no.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ikb4WG8UJRw
just an example.

Peoples interests and incentives are conditioned to the environment that they are living in. If you were to bring tap water to a small African tribe, instead of the woman having to walk all the way to the river to get it, they would ask you what would they do now with all the free time? New incentives would emerge.
mgnt8 wrote:Remove profit and self interest goes right with it

I see no problems with having self interests, as long as they aren't negative to someone else. People can profit in many ways, for example if I have a book you want, and you have a book I want, we would both "profit" by trading them. But the profit I refer to is a monetary payment. A monetary system’s foremost motivating principle is Profit (making money), not sustaining people or the environment.

The production of good and services is indispensable to our well-being and enrichment. I'm not against it what so ever. If anything, this system is only holding back a lot of the production potential we have. As of now,the technology that can free humans from meaningless tasks is stifled due to the monetary based labor system. This is unacceptable. The fact that technology is not being allowed to flourish for the benefit of human kind is, in fact, a Civil Rights issue on a certain level.
mgnt8 wrote:People can and will demand more efficient and sustainable products and eventually producers will sell them.
That's exactly what I'm advocating here, the problem today is that most people don't realize what is possible with current technology, and so they see what is out there as the best that money can buy, and that is somewhat true, but what about the best that money can't buy?

”We call for a straightforward redesign of our culture, in which the age-old inadequacies of war, poverty, hunger, debt and unnecessary human suffering are viewed not only as avoidable, but also as totally unacceptable. Anything less simply results in a continuation of the same catalog of problems inherent in the present system.” – Jacque Fresco

As for currency let's leave it be for now.
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the best things in life are not things.

Re: How cool is that?

July 30th, 2009, 12:21 pm

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Lmo
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Since this discussion is essentially about those who will inhabit the "future" I found this to be an interesting aside; The power of posterity, by David Brooks, New York Times, 30 July, 2009
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Re: How cool is that?

August 1st, 2009, 6:13 pm

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nunoCR wrote: I'm not following you on this one, please elaborate.
the way I see it, if you have 1 cake and you throw a party with 20 people, you're going to have to share that cake with those 20 people, just the general idea. If you don't, you're going to lose friends :P.
Works well as long as all 20 people want cake. Chances are somebody is going to want something else, maybe pie. Tough luck for them. Unfortunately, this pie guy is a real troublemaker and raises a stink. What then? Maybe there are enough resources to go around, but they aren't in infinite supply. Coordination & allocation of resources has to occur in order not to waste anything mkaing cakes. After all pollution is evil. Do we let this loose canon appropriate cake supplies for his pie habit? Maybe we banish him - down with pies!

OK, say this pie guy is somewhat poetic and starts convincing some of our cake compatriots to convert. We'll have no choice but to re-allocate to make some pies. The flour & butter committee gets together and after much haggling and iteration, we work out the split. Only it took so much time some other wiseguy gets impatient and semtimental and starts demanding cupcakes. Hit the road pal - what do think this is, Utopia?

More problems. Central planning has always been doomed to failure because the coordinators assume to much power No one can be allowed to become so specialized that they become an expert. Division of labor must be suppressed to that no one becomes too proficient in any one thing. Everyobdy shares in the labor and rotates different positions. Only thing wrong with this is they just get goo enough making cakes & pies. They actually start to suck. Now no one is happy and we see mass defections to the candy black which starts to spring up because exhchanges between buyers & sellers have always filled the void.

Re: How cool is that?

August 2nd, 2009, 1:54 pm

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... down with pies!
them thars fight'n words!

Great analogy mgnt8. Cake sucks.
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Re: How cool is that?

August 3rd, 2009, 9:51 pm

mgnt8
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Lmo wrote: fight'n words!
Ye gods - I must have been rushed when writing that because it doesn't make much sense even to me. Next time keep the spell check on. You get the picture tho. Intrinsic virtues of the free market system such as division of labor, economies of scale, comparative advantage, and especially specialization allow for breakthroughs and efficiencies in technology and productivity that otherwise can not be realized or mandated by blue ribbon communal councils using local currency or none at all.

One more point about money. Ancient Rome saw its currency devalued, and eventually collapsed, ending it's monetary system. Western Europe didn't recover for 1200 years. It is possible for any society to collapse and devolve. Only when corporations driven by profit motive began to form did we get the industrial revolution and rising in standards of living. For example, life expectancy at the time of the fall of Rome was 44 years and in 1800 it was only 40. 200 years later, it's in the mid 70's.

The best thing we can do for people struggling in developing countries is to get them to join the world economy as fast as possible. Capitalism is their best and brightest hope.

Re: How cool is that?

August 6th, 2009, 3:34 pm

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nunoCR
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Well my cake example was a bit poor, what I mean is that if people hoard resources, instead of sharing them, it's going to generate conflict. And sharing does not cause shortages. Convince me otherwise. If a city,for example supplied cars for it's citizens to use freely, they probably wouldn't have so many them idling in parking lots, being good for nothing. It's access to a car that people need, not owning one. The same applies to almost everything else. Just imagine the amount of resources saved there.
mgnt8 wrote:Works well as long as all 20 people want cake. Chances are somebody is going to want something else, maybe pie. Tough luck for them. Unfortunately, this pie guy is a real troublemaker and raises a stink. What then? Maybe there are enough resources to go around, but they aren't in infinite supply. Coordination & allocation of resources has to occur in order not to waste anything mkaing cakes. After all pollution is evil. Do we let this loose canon appropriate cake supplies for his pie habit? Maybe we banish him - down with pies!
Let's roll a bit with the cakes and pie...
Now, if people want pie as well, and the resources to make both pie and cake are not enough, then we have a problem. And to solve problems we apply science to arrive at the best solution than it can be found. If at the end of the study, cake is better than pie or vice-versa(proven with scientific facts) then the pie/cake guy will have to be reasonable and live with no pie/cake, or come up with a better alternative, like a cake-pie hybrid :lol: .
So you can't demand something just because...
You need reasons and proof that your demand is better, unless you talk at brainwashed people. Even that is done today (yes both!).
I realize we are talking of extremes here, but for resources to become so scarce that people can't have both cake and pie is very unlikely from my point of view. Things don't just disappear, we transform them. In fact, the scarcity of any raw material is only as relevant as the amount of work being invested into finding a substitute or workaround.
More important than substitutes and workarounds is the very nature of our usage of the planetary resources. This is really the most important point in the debate regarding the carrying capacity of the earth, the sustainability of our practices and future generations. As I've noted before, the world’s people function within a monetary system that rewards scarcity, planned obsolescence, waste, pollution and multiplicity.Remember, the monetary system can only work if there is ‘cyclical consumption’. This leads to resource abuse.
mgnt8 wrote:Intrinsic virtues of the free market system such as division of labor, economies of scale, comparative advantage, and especially specialization allow for breakthroughs and efficiencies in technology and productivity that otherwise can not be realized or mandated by blue ribbon communal councils using local currency or none at all.
I agree, but really those are just problem solving practices that are applied to the market by a company in order to maximize profits and maintain the competitive edge (survival basically), those who don't, fall and are usually left behind. The monetary system is nothing more than a game... and an outdated and dysfunctional one at that.
mgnt8 wrote:The best thing we can do for people struggling in developing countries is to get them to join the world economy as fast as possible. Capitalism is their best and brightest hope.
Try coming outside of your fantasy world...
The current economic system is falling apart. Governmental bailouts, stimulus packages, massive debts to who knows who... Simultaneously, we are courting the “point of no return” in regard to the destruction of the environment.
Our current methods of social conduct have proven to have no chance in resolving the problems of environmental destruction, human conflict, poverty, corruption and any other issue that reduces the possibility of collective human sustainability on our planet. How can capitalism (which is already their system) be their best and brightest hope?
It isn't and we have to evolve beyond it.

If you want to get into how ancient Rome fell, money and it's usage, check this movie 1st, I wont bother with it here. It's very well explained, even though it's a cartoon.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_doYllBk ... 4F&index=0
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Re: How cool is that?

August 7th, 2009, 1:21 pm

mgnt8
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nunoCR wrote: In fact, the scarcity of any raw material is only as relevant as the amount of work being invested into finding a substitute or workaround.

I agree, but really those are just problem solving practices that are applied to the market by a company in order to maximize profits and maintain the competitive edge (survival basically), those who don't, fall and are usually left behind. The monetary system is nothing more than a game... and an outdated and dysfunctional one at that.
These intrinsic qualities are what's driving scientific and technological progress. They allow us to find substitutes. There's no alternative for them in the participatory economics model. If we truly live in a world of abundance where there are enough resources for everyone's needs, then the no money, committee-ocracy will work great - for about 5 minutes. This is truly non-sustainable. I don't believe, nor will ever believe this type of system will result in any innovation to provide for future generations.

The current economic system is recovering and the single biggest reason why we never saw World War III is because all major countries embraced capitalism.

I don't have time to watch your economics lesson but I will try to view it this weekend. In the meantime. I will stay out of my fantasy land if you do the same. Retro-futuristic makes for great design but it's not so great for an economic system.

Re: How cool is that?

August 7th, 2009, 2:24 pm

mgnt8
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For anybody wondering what I mean when I refer to participatory economics: a neo-anachist system proposed to replace capitalism

http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics ... _economics
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