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Copying in China Article

April 11th, 2007, 9:23 am

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Timf
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Here is a great article talking about copying in China

http://www.thestandard.com.hk/news_deta ... con_type=1

April 11th, 2007, 9:44 am

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"Lei Danni, who runs a small shop selling fake DVD and compact discs, brushes off accusations by American companies that his business hurts sales of legitimately produced software. "We aren't stealing from anyone. Most of my customers say they wouldn't buy the real thing anyway because its too expensive. So there is no connection."

I see that mentality as borderline retarded, but.... Cultural differences I guess

interesting article, it's hard to imagine that there could be an imitation Disney World! I mean that's a lot larger than a DVD or a fake pair of PUMAs..

:shock:

April 11th, 2007, 9:53 am

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For the background, that is not covered in the article, China has never had the concept that someone could own an idea in their 4,000 year history. The west has had it since Venetian merchant times.

April 11th, 2007, 10:03 am

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The Cultural Revolution has a lot to do with this. It's not just about intellectual rights recognization. It's also not about cultural difference. It's about the distortion of ethical values. Confucius never said anything about stealing being justifiable.

April 11th, 2007, 10:11 am

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The big problem is that "it is not considered stealing". This is first big thing we have to understand.

Right now there is a commercial, created by the Singapore IP office, that talks about how you would not steal a phone, not steal a purse, etc. etc. It then says that piracy is stealing. This is playing in Hong Kong all the time, where there are stricter IP protection laws. They are having to start at the basic level and create an understanding that copying should be equated to stealing.

April 11th, 2007, 10:21 am

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I understand your point, but I disagree that that's what needs to be focused on.

Piracy isn't just China's problem. It's happening all over the world. People download MP3s all the time from everywhere. It's just that related laws and means of governing these laws are weaker in China and people are able to practise piracy with more visablity.

Malaysia is the biggest pirated software exporting country, and China is targetted because it's the biggest up coming market, therefore the most obvious one.

Taking pills for headache when you have a headache isn't going to stop it from happening again.

April 11th, 2007, 1:09 pm

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Piracy isn't just China's problem. It's happening all over the world. People download MP3s all the time from everywhere. It's just that related laws and means of governing these laws are weaker in China and people are able to practise piracy with more visablity.
MC, there's a huge difference between downloading MP3 music for personal use, and selling tickets to a fake Disney World.

I don't think anyone would care or notice if people in China were downloading DVDs for their collection, it's the putting up shop and selling the pirated DVDs to support their family.

...not that I'm a big fan of downloading music on the internet...

April 11th, 2007, 1:13 pm

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molested_cow wrote:The Cultural Revolution has a lot to do with this. It's not just about intellectual rights recognization. It's also not about cultural difference. It's about the distortion of ethical values. Confucius never said anything about stealing being justifiable.

"It's about the distortion of ethical values"

MC, isn't that a cultural difference? their CULTURE in general has different ethical values than ours.

Not better, Not worse, just "Cultural Differences"

April 11th, 2007, 4:47 pm

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copyboy wrote: MC, there's a huge difference between downloading MP3 music for personal use, and selling tickets to a fake Disney World.

I don't think anyone would care or notice if people in China were downloading DVDs for their collection, it's the putting up shop and selling the pirated DVDs to support their family.

...not that I'm a big fan of downloading music on the internet...

I don't see a big difference between buying and selling protected intelluctual property. It's like saying it's ok to buy stolen goods, but not ok to be the thief.

Before the arrival of broadband, p2p softwares and agents like limewire, torrent etc, pirate shops were the most convenient way of getting those things around. When I lived in Singapore years back, those shops will spring everywhere. As soon as one is raided, another will be set up. It's all organized, so it's more than just the individual's ethical values.

The part about noticing if everyone in China download instead of buying.. well, I find that opinion ridiculous. Like I said, there are many sides to this issue and how it has evolved. Other than the fundamental human ethical side of it, there's the politics between countries. Any other country that sees China as a threat in any form will find ways to confine its status internationally, which includes using China's piracy issue as a reason to apply economic sanctions against China. Why do we hear more about China's human rights issue on the media than other countries like N.Korea, Vietnam, S.E.Asian and African countries? Yes those problems do exist and should be confronted, but the same should be applied equally to all that are suffering the same issues too.

copyboy wrote:
"It's about the distortion of ethical values"

MC, isn't that a cultural difference? their CULTURE in general has different ethical values than ours.

Not better, Not worse, just "Cultural Differences"
I don't believe that there is such thing as different ethical value between cultures. Killing for surivial is generally regarded as acceptable. Killing for anything other than survival is bad and we all recognize similar values. The same goes for stealing. Why do I say so? It's because ethical value is very much related to our emotional reaction to our actions and to the reactions that our actions generate. I'd say it's instinctive. You work hard to create something, someone else takes without permission, you feel bad. The other person should be able to put himself in your shoes and think it's bad too. Now, whether he then decides if he will committe the crime is another story, but the recognization of the value, to me, is the same across.

Now, to further explain what is the "cultural" aspect of this, you really need to read into China's recent history between the civil war between the nationalists and communists to today's economical development. I want to put emphasis on how the mentality of people have changed before and after the Cultural Revolutions( especially what happened during the revolution). To summarize it, during that period, the Communist party was out to persecute anyone who thought differently, of whom included the intellectuals(scholars), the rich(since the communists were rising against the captialists) and anyone in between. In that period, all eyes were watching, and anything action is ok as long as you can garantee your own safety, including betraying your immediate family if that helps. If you have a little conflict with your neighbour, the best thing is to report to the authority that he's a nationalist BEFORE HE DOES against you to ensure your own safety. What I am saying is, even though the Cultural Revolution has long passed and most people from then refuse to acknowledge it(the current generation of Chinese know little about it), its residue still can be found in today's society, that it is ok to do bad things as long as it benefits you.

Before the Cultural Revolution, in the 5000 years of Chinese history, Chinese culture is built upon the values taught from the Confucius teachings. There is no question that the act of piracy doesn't fit in the ethical values of traditional chinese culture.

and if you do regard this as a "cultural difference", not better or worse, but just difference, then shouldn't piracy be considered legal in China because "it's their culture"?

April 11th, 2007, 6:08 pm

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Before the arrival of broadband, p2p softwares and agents like limewire, torrent etc, pirate shops were the most convenient way of getting those things around. When I lived in Singapore years back, those shops will spring everywhere. As soon as one is raided, another will be set up. It's all organized, so it's more than just the individual's ethical values.
If you want to look only at downloadable goods (movies, music, etc.), technology is simply way ahead of copywrite law. It all too easy to get ahold of these products for free instead of buying them.

who do you think organized the pirate shops? individuals, therefore it still comes down to individual's ethical values right?

Also, I wasn't talking about buying pirated material, I was talkng about downloading/sharing. and in that, there is a difference, no one is actually trying to make profit from the owner. There is no money involved, that doesn't make it right, but maybe less wrong.
The part about noticing if everyone in China download instead of buying.. well, I find that opinion ridiculous.
All I'm saying is, you don't hear much about people sharing music with eachother, it's nearly impossible to stop that. But if someone opened up shop in the US, offering to sell the music from there computer, like an unauthorized download station, they would be shutdown/fined/arrested. But this is not the case in China apparently (not that I'm trying to single out china, but that's who we're discussing).
I don't believe that there is such thing as different ethical value between cultures. Killing for surivial is generally regarded as acceptable. Killing for anything other than survival is bad and we all recognize similar values. The same goes for stealing. Why do I say so? It's because ethical value is very much related to our emotional reaction to our actions and to the reactions that our actions generate. I'd say it's instinctive. You work hard to create something, someone else takes without permission, you feel bad. The other person should be able to put himself in your shoes and think it's bad too. Now, whether he then decides if he will committe the crime is another story, but the recognization of the value, to me, is the same across.

Now, to further explain what is the "cultural" aspect of this, you really need to read into China's recent history between the civil war between the nationalists and communists to today's economical development. I want to put emphasis on how the mentality of people have changed before and after the Cultural Revolutions( especially what happened during the revolution). To summarize it, during that period, the Communist party was out to persecute anyone who thought differently, of whom included the intellectuals(scholars), the rich(since the communists were rising against the captialists) and anyone in between. In that period, all eyes were watching, and anything action is ok as long as you can garantee your own safety, including betraying your immediate family if that helps. If you have a little conflict with your neighbour, the best thing is to report to the authority that he's a nationalist BEFORE HE DOES against you to ensure your own safety. What I am saying is, even though the Cultural Revolution has long passed and most people from then refuse to acknowledge it(the current generation of Chinese know little about it), its residue still can be found in today's society, that it is ok to do bad things as long as it benefits you.

Before the Cultural Revolution, in the 5000 years of Chinese history, Chinese culture is built upon the values taught from the Confucius teachings. There is no question that the act of piracy doesn't fit in the ethical values of traditional chinese culture.
Different cultures have differnt history. Hence the generations socialized in different ways creating "cultural differences" you're further validationg my point with the history lesson... They do what they have to do in order to survive. If that means selling other people goods, so be it.
and if you do regard this as a "cultural difference", not better or worse, but just difference, then shouldn't piracy be considered legal in China because "it's their culture"?
MC, that's kinda what we're talking about, Piracy might as well be legal if the laws aren't enforced.

I mean, it's illegal to get a Blow Job in FL. But they don't lock up our women! You have to think on an international level, they aren't steeling from eachother, they're steeling goods form co. residing in countries that do enforce these laws.

April 11th, 2007, 7:46 pm

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copyboy wrote: who do you think organized the pirate shops? individuals, therefore it still comes down to individual's ethical values right? .......

...... But if someone opened up shop in the US, offering to sell the music from there computer, like an unauthorized download station, they would be shutdown/fined/arrested. But this is not the case in China apparently (not that I'm trying to single out china, but that's who we're discussing). ....

Organized piracy is runned by the local mafias/gangs or whatever you call it. They hire people with nothing to lose to mend the stores which they rent. When one store is raided and that person arrested, he's being paid by that organization, so for him, there is nothing to lose. As long as you don't crack down on the organization itself, there won't be an end. Another solution is, that people simply became all ethical and stop wanting pirated goods.

For whatever business, the size of operation is always determined by the size of demands. So even when one organization is being up rooted, there will be another to replace it as long as the demand is still there.

These gangs probably do lot's of other things. If the police can crack them down, they would have done so.

Recently Malaysian authority trained one or two dogs to sniff plastics, and helped cracked down on a major piracy distribution facility. Then the local mafia released a grant for anyone who kills the dogs, so the dogs were being put under high security by the authority... pretty funny.
copyboy wrote: There is no money involved, that doesn't make it right, but maybe less wrong.
There is money involved in illegal downloads. All those pop-up ads are where the money comes from. Also, by downloading, you are creating a demand which will be answered with supplies. They are all forms of stealing whether you get your hands dirty or not. Too, by downloading without paying, you ARE stealing, and that's money stolen.

When I visited NYC, there were people selling copied DVDs on the streets. Why don't China pressure the UN to take action on US?

China has been singled out for a long time, and that has led to people thinking that it's a cultural thing. That's what I am disagreeing with.
copyboy wrote: MC, that's kinda what we're talking about, Piracy might as well be legal if the laws aren't enforced.
I can't help but say these for the sake of saying(don't take it seriously). It's never a clear line between re-enforcing what's right and minding other's business. It's just like how the western world condamn the muslims in certain middle east countries for stoning their girls to death and the talibans for prohibiting females from receiving education. It's their culture, so why should we care?
copyboy wrote: They do what they have to do in order to survive. If that means selling other people goods, so be it.
Well, piracy IS NOT a survival act. There are other means to earn a living. The mean of making money with piracy is for convenience sake.
copyboy wrote: I mean, it's illegal to get a Blow Job in FL. But they don't lock up our women! You have to think on an international level, they aren't steeling from eachother, they're steeling goods form co. residing in countries that do enforce these laws.
It's illegal to get/give a blow job in many places. It's illegal to be homosexual in some countries. However, with the internet, piracy isn't local. Also, parties who suffer from China's piracy problem mostly come from the west, that's why the west care so much. So it's beyond "international". Corporations who are victims, like microsoft, pressure the government to pressure China. This isn't about ethics. It's simply about doing things that benefit the US(as an example), and the votes for the next election.

Man we've come around in a circle. Everyone is greedy. Everyone wants what they want, and when that happens, conflicts arise. All hail the humanity!!!

April 11th, 2007, 7:50 pm

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I can't believe that core censored the word "h0m0sacksual"!!!

May 3rd, 2007, 3:25 pm

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Someone sent me this clip. It's the Japanese media's report on that Chinese theme park.

http://www.buddy8.com/movie/disneyland.html
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