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FH13
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We can't forget there's a lot of different kinds of businesses out there that require ID work. Here are my assumptions:
-This sounds to me like a established business with an established product line that only needs incremental changes.
-They probably don't put a lot of value on ID because their products are selling, but they know they need someone for whatever design needs they have to run the business. I'm surprised they didn't ask for Photography, Art Direction & Social Media.
-Not enough work throughout the year to hire a dedicated ID, Graphics, Mechanical Engineer, Model Maker separately.
-In theory and most ID'ers can dabble into those disciplines. Some do it very well.
-They don't have an established design department and that's why they need a "designer" that can do everything.
-Not perfect but enough to get the point across be it ID, graphics, simple mechanical concepts, BOMs, models, etc.
-If they found a super talented designer that can do all these duties extremely well, they will not want to pay his/her salary requirements.
-They are probably asking for the ideal candidate knowing they will have to settle for the one that will do.
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Some places like to "cast a wide net" thinking it doesn't hurt to ask for everything to see who they get applying.
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Generatewhatsnext
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iab wrote:
Generatewhatsnext wrote: our capitalistic approach to everything has minimized the value of our human resources(
Incorrect.

Our capitalistic approach to everything has minimized the value of objects. And while there are consequences in living in a disposable world, I think they are far better than living in a world where objects are idolized.
idainc has brought up a great point about the "hiring fancy" of firms looking for over-abundant-ID-resources and all you've done in your three or four posts to him and me is to try to piss all over it. Maybe insulting him isn't the best way to make your point.

As for my comment about our capitalistic society and economy, it's spot-on...in mass production it has minimized the value of not only the objects in front of us but the entire process and resources (yes, even human) used to make those objects. While it has its obvious pros it certainly has its obvious cons as well, whether you want to admit it or not. And we could go further too, discussing the impacts of how our economic engine is influenced by our political system and how those influencers started the decline of our labor force beginning the slow push away from artisanship toward "get 'er done" about 45 years ago. It is that degradation of the expert details that you're mocking, although I don't think you know that.

And while you should be proud of how versatile you've become as a designer (in the past, I too have performed that laundry list of tasks you mentioned) I doubt you'd argue that you or I are probably not the fastest or most efficient capital planning or purchasing resources and so insisting or being asked to perform those tasks might help you earn your keep, it's not the best way to accomplish that task - and that was idainc's point - yep, the evils of capitalism.
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idainc
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Generatewhatsnext wrote:
iab wrote:
Generatewhatsnext wrote: our capitalistic approach to everything has minimized the value of our human resources(
Incorrect.

Our capitalistic approach to everything has minimized the value of objects. And while there are consequences in living in a disposable world, I think they are far better than living in a world where objects are idolized.
idainc has brought up a great point about the "hiring fancy" of firms looking for over-abundant-ID-resources and all you've done in your three or four posts to him and me is to try to piss all over it. Maybe insulting him isn't the best way to make your point.

As for my comment about our capitalistic society and economy, it's spot-on...in mass production it has minimized the value of not only the objects in front of us but the entire process and resources (yes, even human) used to make those objects. While it has its obvious pros it certainly has its obvious cons as well, whether you want to admit it or not. And we could go further too, discussing the impacts of how our economic engine is influenced by our political system and how those influencers started the decline of our labor force beginning the slow push away from artisanship toward "get 'er done" about 45 years ago. It is that degradation of the expert details that you're mocking, although I don't think you know that.

And while you should be proud of how versatile you've become as a designer (in the past, I too have performed that laundry list of tasks you mentioned) I doubt you'd argue that you or I are probably not the fastest or most efficient capital planning or purchasing resources and so insisting or being asked to perform those tasks might help you earn your keep, it's not the best way to accomplish that task - and that was idainc's point - yep, the evils of capitalism.
I read the posts we received in response to my original post and quite honestly, I wasn’t certain whether I should take them seriously. In fact, I still can’t determine whether they were maybe tongue in cheek.

The proliferation of design schools hasn’t been a positive thing for the industry. There are schools that are located in areas that aren’t noted for their vibrant arts communities. There is an imaginary Ivy League of Design Schools. I went to one. Those that strenuously object to that notion just plain didn’t go to one. ID is far more than a trade school experience taught off the beaten path in a vacuum or in a community college.

The proliferation of people claiming to be able to do everything for everybody is very concerning as it devalues talent. It’s hard to imagine how one can have expertise in any one field when you also claim expertise in others that use very complex software regardless of “talent”. How many hours are there in your day?

You either are or are not an ID expert. You may have exposure to other fields but exposure and expertise are very different things.

As Generatewhatsnext says – the world has gone from an appreciation of talent to the baseless and barren “just gimme the file” approach. Deliverables without content fostered by the “I can do it all” school of design.

The same thing has happened in law. You can be on trial for murder with an attorney from an Ivy League law school (who’s a dinosaur) or you can have an attorney from a store front night school who is an expert in it all.

The plane is on fire. Do you want a dinosaur / expert in the left seat (with 18 or more years experience) or someone who "can do it all" ?
MK19
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idainc wrote:The plane is on fire. Do you want a dinosaur / expert in the left seat (with 18 or more years experience) or someone who "can do it all" ?
This is a pointless question and years spent doing something does not make one a natural at it, or an expert. Ability cannot be measured in years spent doing something.
I've worked with people with 18+ years experience that are literally incompetent as designers and engineers, and I have taught students who after a 3 year degree are not only better than people who've done the same niche thing for decades, but also have excellent graphic design skills, etc. I would employ these graduates over certain "Design Managers" I have worked under.
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ralphzoontjens
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MK19 wrote:
idainc wrote:The plane is on fire. Do you want a dinosaur / expert in the left seat (with 18 or more years experience) or someone who "can do it all" ?
This is a pointless question and years spent doing something does not make one a natural at it, or an expert. Ability cannot be measured in years spent doing something.
That reminds us of the man from Mali who saved a child from a balcony yesterday and now has a job as a firefighter (and citizenship). Maybe he knows nothing about the specifics of extinguishing fire, but will he be a better fire man? I think so. I would rather have that guy on my plane than some guy like that child's father who maybe knows a lot about parenting but when push comes to shove isn't up to it.
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George Bush was president for 8 years. I'd still trust 99.99999% of humanity over him to preside over a country.
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yo
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OK guys, this is really degrading in here, lets pull up before it runs to ground. To refocus on the OP's comment, I wouldn't let a huge ask in an employment advert stop me from applying if it was a job I really wanted where I thought I could add value and learn.
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KenoLeon
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The plane is indeed on fire and no ones is piloting. I've found the design world many times more toxic than tech and finance, I've recently dipped my toes into politics, at least there everyone is a known backstabber and you know what to expect, maybe stop pretending we have each others best interests at heart or even care for the industry would be a good start, maybe it was silly to think that designers were slightly more enlightened that the average joe.

Think I am exaggerating, this is where we are at:

This is the best laptop :




At around 0.40 the reviewer states : " a complete ripoff of MacBook pro" followed by "I don't have a problem"

I think the plane already crashed.
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