November 16th, 2004, 2:29 pm

User avatar
molested_cow
full self-realization
full self-realization
Posts: 1561
Joined: January 20th, 2004, 6:54 pm
Location: Everywhere~Anywhere
cg wrote:A big part of car ownership in the US is the freedom it gives you. Since SUV's give you more freedom (to do more things,) it becomes the obvious "more bang for the buck" choice when shopping on features.

They're also way-cooler than the next best things: station-wagons or minivans.
More freedom...what?
More bang for the Buck... what?
Cooler than station wagons or mini vans.... what?

Image

Image


To me, mini vans from the other side of the globe are sexy as hell.[/img]

November 16th, 2004, 3:00 pm

User avatar
cg
full self-realization
full self-realization
Posts: 2498
Joined: January 10th, 2004, 12:21 am
Location: San Diego
Those asian minivans are all about efficiency, speed and interior--not utility and exterior ruggedness. No way you're taking those offroad. "Sexy" is the wrong vernacular for SUV's.

The perfect SUV should look better dirty than clean. That's freedom.

November 16th, 2004, 3:13 pm

User avatar
molested_cow
full self-realization
full self-realization
Posts: 1561
Joined: January 20th, 2004, 6:54 pm
Location: Everywhere~Anywhere
But exatly how often do you go off-road... and I mean REAL off road? Gravel driveways don't count.

What kind of freedom are you refering too? Definitely not in the daily driving. I can see how trucks work for farm owners or jobsite workers, but I can't really find a good reason to buy a SUV. At least that's for me.

I wonder why car companies, especially Porsche, advertise their SUVs to be more of a road machine than off-road rigs. Also wonder why they test their SUVs on the road way more than off road. Even Land Rovers have gone soft.

To clearify, SUV to me doesn't spell off road. SUV to me is purely what I am against. Cars like Jeep have strong off-road capabilities and I respect that a lot. I just don't see the reason for others like x5, Cayanne or Escalade and such. H2 is a joke. If I need something, I go for a well done H1.

November 16th, 2004, 3:31 pm

User avatar
cg
full self-realization
full self-realization
Posts: 2498
Joined: January 10th, 2004, 12:21 am
Location: San Diego
molested_cow wrote:I just don't see the reason for others like x5, Cayanne or Escalade and such. H2 is a joke. If I need something, I go for a well done H1.
I totally agree.

November 16th, 2004, 6:35 pm

User avatar
ufo
full self-realization
full self-realization
Posts: 996
Joined: January 11th, 2004, 3:45 am
Location: global
yo wrote: Uhm WOW, I guess thats why the Chinese are developing the newest, most innovative products, the cutting edge technologies no one else is trying, the hottest most origional styling, the most unique vehicle packaging and construction... oh, wait a second, they just copy everyone else. (kind of like that car they produce that has the front of a BMW 5series, and the back of a S-Class Mercedes, the Ford 500 has more origionality than anything I've seen out of China, and that is saying a lot) Dude, either you've never been to China, or you've been there too much, I can't tell yet.

Just because they built a huge state run design center this year doesn't mean, well anything really. Without individualism there can be no progress in design. Without the willingnes to take a risk and be diffrent there is only status quo. When China stops being the world's industrial park, they will begin to succede in pushing beyond what is allready in the market. I think it will hapen, it just takes time. Several generations have been drilled to conform and do as their told, it takes awhile to shake that kind of thinking. Give a few decades.

I'm not sure if you can generalize and say tha Chinese have better taste than yourself, but lets hope they have a better sense of tact.
well, looks like you've either been watching too many local news short reports on china or old documentaries. i can't tell either.

i know everything is meaningless to americans because they don't like meaning to begin with. so you want to tell me that american cars specially suvs have some sort of a meaning? or american design centers just because there's this "individuality" or "risk" factor.

china has opened its doors to world business and investors just like all the other countries who have based a big part of their economy on foreign investment except i don't think they will tolerate those who invest run their country.

i think this is more important than individuality and risk because it provides a solid back up for those individuals with greater shift in ideas than just pertaining to a simple innovative product. this way the investment is not wasted on ordinary process of building capital but to enhance a multi task system that is unique when it comes to deffrentiating between foreign investment and internal management systems.

the advantage for china is that it has a flexible work force, integrated management and supervision, and most importantly a cost effective programable load system that does not interfere with the other entities.

US and europe lack such system and wont be able to build and run some system like it because the internal dynamics of their systems goes back to industrial revolution while the chinese have completely ditched that part of history and have assumed and adopted an apogee respose strategy where ideas remain hidden-level until proven effective. it's part of chinese culture, i think it has something to do with old chinese astronomy and math foundations. that's why i guess from an american stand point chinese people seem to be in rigor mortis. it's not true.

so you're right - they have a better sense of tact than i do. they also have a better sense of humor.
Last edited by ufo on November 17th, 2004, 10:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

November 16th, 2004, 7:59 pm

User avatar
Mr-914
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 5810
Joined: January 12th, 2004, 7:44 am
Location: Montréal, QC
Chinese design is similar to Japanese or Korean, it will be mostly inspired by existing designs, but with less well done detailing. Look at Korean stuff even 5 years ago (like Hyundai in cars). It was all chop shop Euro bits tossed into one car (ie Tiboron/Sonata). Eventually and slowly the Chinese will develop their own visual languages...but it will probably take 15 years.

There are always exceptions though!

War and fear definately play into SUVs. Sales of the H2 reflect that for sure!

Another factor in the growth of SUV sales were their seating height. In dense traffic they used to give you a good view of traffic ahead, until everyone else had one. Now that advantage is quickly losing its effectiveness.

November 17th, 2004, 12:17 am

User avatar
molested_cow
full self-realization
full self-realization
Posts: 1561
Joined: January 20th, 2004, 6:54 pm
Location: Everywhere~Anywhere
Mr-914 wrote:Another factor in the growth of SUV sales were their seating height. In dense traffic they used to give you a good view of traffic ahead, until everyone else had one. Now that advantage is quickly losing its effectiveness.
The height thing is what bugs me a lot too. It's like competing to see who's got the tallest stool. I drive a coupe, and everytime some SUV or truck tailgates me, which many of them love to do, I get blinded by their headlights. Sometimes I wish I have flood lights installed at the back of my car to take some revenge.

There are regulations to limit how low the headlight can go, I think there should be regulations on how high the headlights should be places too.

Also I have noticed that big car drivers tend to be more careless. From personal observation, SUV drivers tend to drive faster, change lanes as they wish, tailgate and worst of all, use handset while driving. Michigan is a backward state that hasn't banned the use of handsets while driving. I think all governments should ban it. I can tell if a person is using his/her cell phone just by the way the car moves on the road.

November 20th, 2004, 1:44 am

User avatar
New Pratt Kid
step three
step three
Posts: 178
Joined: January 8th, 2004, 3:01 pm
Location: San Jose, CA
Welcome to NYC.
I am struggling almost everyday on Westside Highway where all these crazy drivers tailgate, high beams on with Ego big as Hell.
Ah...SUVs...they are causing more traffics and accidents on the road for the smaller cars.
And talking about the condition of NYC roads.. and SUVs that are making it worse. Cracking the road like tanks, blocking the streets and avenues, causing so much traffics while they are wasting gas in the traffic jam, fuming out the toxic gas..and the major HELL is the parkings.
I am so against Truck size cars in the busy cities.

November 21st, 2004, 12:52 pm

User avatar
Mr-914
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 5810
Joined: January 12th, 2004, 7:44 am
Location: Montréal, QC
I've started reading "Drive On" by LJK Setright this weekend, and was surprised to find some similarities between current global automotive tastes and those of the early 1900's.

LJK recounts how France had the most developed road system before the 1920's, whereas the US had perhaps the worst. While the French, enjoying their smooth(er) roads started to develop a taste for cars with a good steering feel, handling and finesse, the US had an opportunity for a beast of a vehicle - one with rugged long travel suspension, a gutsy rouch engine that has a wide band of low end power to help navigate poor or non-existant roads. Also, while the European public cautiously approached these new inventions, the sales slowly growing every year...the US jumped into it head first once Henry Ford had constructed the cheap, but tough, Model T (there is a reason the T is the second largest selling vehicle of all time).

Today, although are road situation has perhaps reversed, the US being criss-crossed by smooth interstate, the American public continues its love of cars that have huge amounts of wheel travel, no steering feel and wide amounts of power that keep shifting gears a minimum. Like I had said, there is something that has either been programed into, or rests in the American concious about the way they want their vehicles.

Also, despite the recent rise in anti-french-ism in the US, I see that people still use the word "Automobile"...a French word. Where is the Freedomobile?

November 21st, 2004, 3:02 pm

User avatar
yo
Administration
Administration
Posts: 17281
Joined: January 5th, 2004, 6:57 pm
Coroflot: 67242
Location: SoCal
would you like to go for a drive in my automobile or a spin in the car?

seriously though, that's pretty inresting, I might have to check that book out. I think there is something to that low level programing of product tastes.

November 22nd, 2004, 9:39 am

User avatar
Mr-914
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 5810
Joined: January 12th, 2004, 7:44 am
Location: Montréal, QC
You haven't read LJK yo? I learned more about tires from his out-of-print book, "Automobile Tyres", than I did reading car magazines for 15 years. The sad thing is, the book was from the 1960's.

The good part is "Drive On" is in print.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/de ... ce&s=books

It's weird that Amazon tells me it is better to buy this with the 9/11 commision report though.

November 22nd, 2004, 12:01 pm

User avatar
d-flux
step four
step four
Posts: 339
Joined: January 10th, 2004, 1:04 pm
Coroflot: 36012
ok here is a loaded question:

How would you feel if purchase of an SUV required proof of 'proper' use? like a hunter's permit or membership to outdoors organizations?

I have what could be qualified as an suv in my portfolio, but this is STRICTLY offroad, it would look too out-of-place in the city, and it is meant for really extreme offroading. How do i prevent this project from entering the SUV CRAP group? how do i specifically target consumers that are genuinely going to use this for what it was intended fromt he H2-buying crowd?

November 22nd, 2004, 12:20 pm

User avatar
molested_cow
full self-realization
full self-realization
Posts: 1561
Joined: January 20th, 2004, 6:54 pm
Location: Everywhere~Anywhere
d-flux wrote:ok here is a loaded question:

How would you feel if purchase of an SUV required proof of 'proper' use? like a hunter's permit or membership to outdoors organizations?

I have what could be qualified as an suv in my portfolio, but this is STRICTLY offroad, it would look too out-of-place in the city, and it is meant for really extreme offroading. How do i prevent this project from entering the SUV CRAP group? how do i specifically target consumers that are genuinely going to use this for what it was intended fromt he H2-buying crowd?
Jeep will be announcing a new concept vehicle called Gladiator in the upcoming Detoit autoshow. I think you should check that out at cardesignnews.com.

I like the concept of it because it has successfully defined its intension, but I think it could have been a lot better. Nevertheless, you will still find rich b@stards pimping unique cars like that.

November 23rd, 2004, 11:01 am

ML
step four
step four
Posts: 263
Joined: August 20th, 2004, 2:17 pm
The driving tacktics you are talking about is not just limited to the SUV's. How many rice rockets do you see flying down the streets at 100+. There are 1-2 fatalities in this city alone everyday due to street racers, or some punk steeling one of these cars and getting in a high speed chase. Sad thing is it is rarely the racer who is killed, it is normally another driver on the road. Tailgating, I have a 03 Ram, on most days I have at least one sports compact riding my tailgate so close I cant even see it over my tailgate. I even have a dent in the rear bumper from an RX-8 who thought he could skeaze between me and a minivan, because he was trying to race a CBR 650 (who shot down the white lines to avoid traffic).

You see any group can find fault with any vehical cat. of choice. Fact is it is the drivers who are the problem, and some vehicals just seam to draw certain drivers with certain bad habits.

My bigest issue with SUV's is the Sports in the title. It tends to lead people to believe they can drive their H2 like a sports can, and not like the truck that it is. If you lookinto the acidents that involve rollovers, you will find that speeds were mainly the case. If people would simply know the limitations for their vehicals they would eliminate most all roll-overs. In fact no SUV or 4x4 should exceed 75 mph, read your tire ratings, all on/off road (dual pupose) tire have a maximum approved speed of 75.

Saying SUV's are causing people to drive like idiates, is like saying Guns cause husbands to kill their wifes. No the drivers are idiates, and the husband is a killer.

November 23rd, 2004, 12:29 pm

Guest
ML wrote: If people would simply know the limitations for their vehicals they would eliminate most all roll-overs.
agreed. Have you guys seen the video of this F1 racer guy test driving a sedan? he made it flip quite a few times, because he thought he could race it like his F1.

anywho, my deal is not with the drivers, you find idiots anywhere and everywhere, driving all kinds of cars. I think people just arent practical, and use their 'emotional' response instead of logic.

the only reason I would buy an suv is if i lived in the mountains or in a ranch or farm. no need to spend on gas if i wont be able to go as fast.....and have no need for 4x4 traction. btw was dissappointed in the gladiator concept....loks just like an old jeep!!!
Reply