Zune

Design Discussions general design discussion
1

Hey All:

Can someone explain to me how Microsoft can be quoted as saying that “We will not look like iPod, nor smell, nor feel”. This was a quote from their Director of Marketing for Zune.

I sit and scratch my head that with all the things that seem to be “right” about Zune but wonder how they fail so miserably by creating a product that has the design language of its main competitor (the one they are supposed to “kill”), and then deny it so feverishly?

I truly wish I could figure this one out. It has been bugging me far too much. I think it bugs me so much because I truly want to see a significant competitor for iPod.

2

just got the new iPod… unbeatable… so far…

3

Just the fact that it’s from MS makes it “smell” different.

The way I see it, there are only two winning strategies against iPod: it’s either a lot cheaper, or a lot cooler. I can’t see either of those, so maybe what they’re really after is the rest of the MP3 player market, and they’re simply drafting off of the iPod brand.

“iPod for the rest of us” not “better than iPod.”

I own a lot of MS stuff, hell, I even ditched my Tivo for a Media Center. But there’s no way the ZUNE is displacing my 4G Video iPod. My next will be the 6G Touchscreen iPod, and I haven’t even seen it yet!! That’s power.

4

cg: You have the same disease I have - I’ve started planning my iPod purchases based on technology roll-outs. I own a perfectly good 4G 20gb iPod (pre-video), but I’ve already started saving my pennies for the touchscreen iPod. I’ve even started the anal-retentive practice of loading the album art into iTunes in anticipation of a larger color screen.

That’s real brand power when people plan their product purchases in anticipation of the product’s launch. I’ve decided I can afford a new iPod every two years - like my cell phones.

5

I was looking more for a response to the styling of Zune. The comments made by M$ so far seem to ignore the fact that the design language of the Zune is painfully close to that of the iPod. In particular, the 3rd Gen iPod. I haven’t done a particularly in depth review of the proportions, but man, even the corner blends look to be pretty darn close to the same.

It looks to me as if it is a toss away sketch from the Apple sketchbook.

For some reason, this doesn’t seem to generate much discord in people. Maybe I am just a bit to uppity about it.

6

From all that I’ve read so far it seems that Zune is an off-the-shelf, accelerated re-branding effort by Microsoft.

Ballmer probably lost too much sleep knowing that someone else was making money in the consumer tech industry so he gave his guys an ultimatum to launch something, anything by Christmas 2006 or they lose their jobs.

The form factor is obviously tied to another successful MP3 player. This is a rope-a-dope design strategy. Once they realize they bought a cludgy button navigation wheel instead of the elegant (and heavily patented) touch sensitive wheel the word will get out.

I doubt that any informed MP3 buyers will flock to an also-ran effort by big brother. It usually takes a few iterations before Microsoft gets anything right. This will be no different. By the time they get it right Apple will be another 3 steps ahead.

7

I too am awaiting the release of the new touchscreen ipod or even the iphone (whatever they name it). In the meantime i’ll stick with the new ipod nano.

I agree with one-word-plastics that apple will always be a step ahead of the rest of the field. Microsoft will struggle to survive in the mp3 industry do to the innovations apple is constantly preceding them with.

Statements written on a PowerBook G4 - maybe a little biased, then again maybe not…

8

I can’t wrap my head around WHY M$ can’t get it right…other than they are a marketing and engineering centric company. Designers are cogs there, from what I can tell. While at Apple, the designers (not just Industrial Designers) take center stage.

I suppose as long as M$ focusses solely on cramming more features into its products so as to accomodate an MRD, they will be screwed.

Will Apple still be on top 10 years from now? I hope so. But then again, no one thought Sony would ever lose the mobile music industry Top Dog status either. One thing that Apple has in common with Sony is that they are both very proprietary technology centric. Sony lost Beta vs. VHS. They lost miniDisc. They lost the mobile market due to their inability to see the long tail of music.

I hope that in the long run Apple will learn from those mistakes and keep their strangle hold. I actually think the iTV announcement is going to be a much bigger deal for them in the long run, not the iPod or rumored iPhone lines.

9

Wow, right down to the AV cables…

ZUNE Accessories:

iPod Accessories:

10

It’s interesting to see how iPod owners are angry about DRM but don’t scream very much about Apple trying to trademark “pod”. That Apple gets away with one of the most heavily controlled operating systems in existence yet MS is the one being called “evil” for - among other things - not open sourcing elements of their OS.

The fanatism is interesting. Where else do you hear about the “Cult of the Mac”. But the problem, as with any cult, is that it blinds people to reality.

Apple is pulling some things MS would be given a LOT of sh*t for. And MS is doing more than simply offering a music/video device. I think this is a bigger move and I’ve read opinion pieces from others who believe that this is, in fact, the case.

Let’s not forget, MS did win the OS war. MS bailed Apple out when they needed financing. Apple has delivered substandard product (remember the Cube cracks?). Apple’s original innovations weren’t Apple ideas, they were Xerox PARC’s.

Apple is just another company. And Zune may be a bigger threat than cultists care to admit.

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Once Apple starts letting me down, then I’ll be outraged about all the music I’ve bought that tied to their DRM. Until then, they can do whatever they want and I’ll probably line up to buy it. I can’t say that about MS.

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So you won’t be at the protests in NYC today. I’d be surprised to see any designers. The cult is strong in the design community. But I don’t consider that a good thing. It’s potentially blinding.

There is plenty of room for MS to take over the market. They did it once. They could do it again.

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csven…I fully agree with you. M$ has the inertia of the Titanic to really do significant damage to Apple’s marketshare.

As you pointed out, they dominate the OS realm, they submarined Sony’s strangle hold on the gaming market, and the could definitely do it now with Zune.

Apple is not a darling. Jobs is a prick but he still gets put on a pedestal. M$ gets the shit end of the stick far too often IMO.

HOWEVER, as a designer I am absolutely and utterly appalled that M$ has the gall to put out a product that has a virtually identical design language as iPod in an attempt to “kill the iPod”. If Zune is a success, it is something that I believe sets the design industry back 5 years in its progress of educating the business world about the value of design.

I would bet my left testicle that this is a program that has been driven by a bunch of Old School Marketing buffoon’s that have not clue one what innovation, with respect to design, is. The simple fact that Zune’s Director of Marketing can be paraphrased as saying, “Zune does not look, smell, or act like a Zune” (I am too lazy to look up the actual quote) sums up how dense they are acting on this one.

The proportions of Zune, the packaging, the color (minus the brown, which I believe is the ballsiest thing M$ has done for this product) the product mimicking the look of a speaker with its round D-Pad are all hugely disappointing.

If this was another Rio, or other small player I would not be saying a word because I expect it. With this I am so hugely disappointed because they could have done so much better. They have every resource in the world and they screwed it up.

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Why? Plenty of designers copy aesthetics all the time. It’s the rallying cry for everyone who wants to eliminate DRM and encourage a remix culture. How many cars look the same? How many appliances? A good solution being used - not just by MS but by many, many companies - should be no surprise to anyone. We live with this all the time. Look at your keyboard. There was a time when it was new and unique.

Further, MS has, imo, been after more than just the iPod for a very, very long time. How many people know that MS was hiring all sorts of esoteric content creators over a decade ago; experts in musical instruments most of us have never heard. This - Zune - may only be a small piece of a larger effort (about which I’ve previously blogged - My First Prediction… and Maybe My Last | reBang ). All the pieces continue to fit. Just because it has a particular form factor doesn’t really mean all that much afaic.

If Zune is a success, it is something that I believe sets the design industry back 5 years in its progress of educating the business world about the value of design.

Really? I’d figure the opposite. However, I think designers need to admit that the iPod is not a success merely because of the tangible product design. This came with a business plan that was probably far more important. The device’s design was one part of a bigger effort. Let’s not go having ID claim too much credit.

I would bet my left testicle that this is a program that has been driven by a bunch of Old School Marketing buffoon’s that have not clue one what innovation, with respect to design, is. The simple fact that Zune’s Director of Marketing can be paraphrased as saying, “Zune does not look, smell, or act like a Zune” (I am too lazy to look up the actual quote) sums up how dense they are acting on this one.

I think you may want to keep your testicle’s out of this. I’d suggest you read this opinion piece: http://playlistmag.com/news/2006/09/29/zune/index.php . Zune has capabilities the iPod doesn’t. And it’s hooked into a potentially bigger system: MS Marketplace. This starts to get into the things which I often raise here (but which go largely ignored) - the convergence of media including design.

The proportions of Zune, the packaging, the color (minus the brown, which I believe is the ballsiest thing M$ has done for this product) the product mimicking the look of a speaker with its round D-Pad are all hugely disappointing.

Who cares? Design is more than an object’s shape. If all IDers ever do is worry about shape and color, then this occupation will never get out from under Engineering and Marketing.

If this was another Rio, or other small player I would not be saying a word because I expect it. With this I am so hugely disappointed because they could have done so much better. They have every resource in the world and they screwed it up.

They screwed what up? You’ve used one??

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csven, I partially agree. ID most certainly is about More than just shape, but it is still ALSO about shape and form, and here is where they screwed up without a doubt.

Who cares about it? We do. We are the only ones charged with advancing the aesthetics of mass produced objects, and that is not a superficial task. As an example of how aesthetics are important, consider how archeologists labor over the function products of past civilizations, why they were made that way and what they used them for is as important as what they tell about that civilization through their aesthetics. It is just one part of our responsibility, but still a very valid one and a tangible one at that.

It is nice to see a full fledged competitor to the iPod, but it turns out that full fledged competitor looks like they bought old tooling from apple’s factory. You can’t get ahead by aiming for your competitor’s current location, they will always be another step in front… I would cut them more slack if they didn’t call it the “anti iPod”*, they put a bar in place they did not hit… from what I’ve read of how it works and what I can see from the way it is finished, it does look like the nicest iPod alternative.

  • (unless by anti they meant the form was so unimportant they knocked it off… that would be very anti. Not to contradict myself, but the apple form language isn’t much more that a regurgitation of Dieter Rams’ Braun work… but it still really nice and very well done, coupled with the fact it is super usable… but we all knew that)

^michael

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They haven’t even sold the thing yet everyone is so sure that it will fail. Tell me, do all corporations go to their ID department to receive assurances of success or failure? Does even Nike go to its designers to receive such perfect future market intelligence? Forgive me for doubting that to be the case. I’ve never been at a corporation where ID had the last word on whether a product would have success or failure, and even now I don’t know of anyone who can predict the future with such certainty.

Who cares about it? We do. We are the only ones charged with advancing the aesthetics of mass produced objects, and that is not a superficial task.

I don’t EVER recall saying it was a superficial task. I AM saying that there is more to product success than aesthetics. A good example is Hyundai. Their first vehicles in the U.S. market were pretty ugly afaic (and I wasn’t alone). Yet look at how successful they’re becoming.

My point is that there is MORE than aesthetics. That IDers can’t get past that baffles me.

You can’t get ahead by aiming for your competitor’s current location, they will always be another step in front…

In all honesty, did you bother to read the opinion piece? It doesn’t sound like you did. Nor do you seem very familiar with MS’s Marketplace. The videogame industry is huge. With Zune, people will be buying games as well as game assets (which is what many companies are now moving toward; online gaming will soon be free but the virtual good will cost “points” and that will replace the current subscription scheme - a scheme which brings in a LOT of money).

Can Apple do that? No

Can iPod users wirelessly share music peer-to-peer between iPods? No.

Does Apple have a system in place to allow 3D modelers to sell content for points and use those to acquire music/movies? Not that I’m aware of.

Does Apple have as many movie distribution deals lined up as MS? Very likely the answer is No.

Zune may look like an iPod, but there’s more than looks to MS’s play. I repeat: MS won the OS war. And no one ever claimed Windows was better than MacOS. According to that article only about 30 million people own an iPod, while 300 million people use Windows. Oh, and Zune works with XBox too.

The iPod may look nicer. It may be more aesthetically pleasing. But that doesn’t mean Apple can hold back the MS tide.

17

Why? Plenty of designers copy aesthetics all the time. It’s the rallying cry for everyone who wants to eliminate DRM and encourage a remix culture. How many cars look the same? How many appliances? A good solution being used - not just by MS but by many, many companies - should be no surprise to anyone. We live with this all the time. Look at your keyboard. There was a time when it was new and unique.

but you don’t you, even slightly, feel like MS could/should have done more than mimic the aesthetic of the ipod for their “anti-ipod”? (unless it is intentionally meant to be ironic, which would be quite cool to me) it would seem to be a good opportunity for them to really stand out among all the other look-a-like ipods, i mean doesn’t it say a lil’ something when a company that can spend the $$$ on design, doesn’t (or at least does not appear to be)?

that being said, i buy one of these before i would buy an ipod, what does that say about me…

18

Why should they? The iPod-infatuated crowd aren’t their market. Furthermore, it sounds as if they listened to all of you guys proclaiming the iPod as the best solution given the current technology and came to the same conclusion. Is there something wrong with that?

Everyone says it’s brilliant. The market loves it. It sells and is arguably the best thing Apple has. Why expect MS to re-invent the wheel? So they can look different?

Here’s the only issue I have: if a company copies without doing any research to determine that they can’t come up with a better solution. I consider that an issue. However, if a company goes through R&D and doesn’t come up with something better than what the competition has, then so be it. The goal is to have the best solution, not the “okay” solution. I’d venture MS’s designers couldn’t come up with a better design. Is that a surprise? Can anyone here do a better job than what Apple did? If not, then why rip MS for doing what they’re supposed to do: run a business?

19

I see the peer-to-peer social networking aspect to be a HUGE draw for the Zune. This is just what the kids are lookin’ for these days…

Thanks for the link csven, that article was quite informative…

From the linked article:

  1. The Zune is social and viral.

Since the iPod first came out, times have changed. The rise of social networks like MySpace.com and viral Web 2.0 sites like that of YouTube Inc. have transformed the expectations of young people about sharing and using media. In the context of these trends, Apple is old school. But the Zune, with its peer-to-peer wireless file sharing, is both social and viral.

Tweens, teens and twentysomethings have acquired the habit of feverishly sharing videos and songs. Today, they mostly have to wait until they get home and use their PCs to do so. With the Zune, students will be free to share music, videos and photos right there in class. They’ll be able to pass notes to one another. The Zune isn’t just a solitary music player. Think of it as a portable, wireless, hardware version of MySpace.

20

To come up with an interesting cost effective mp3/video device is an incredibly tough task. What else could the zune be apart from a compact rectangular box with a generous screen and some soft radiuses. Personally, I think that Innovation in the portable electronics space is driven by science and technology, i.e new types of displays, screens, batteries, wireless shit, etc etc.

It is also driven by the quality and depth of your services. I agree with many of the points that cseven makes about Xbox live and the marketplace. M$ have the infrastructure in place for people to buy shit, sell shit and share shit with their friends.

I also want to be able to integrate my Zune hardware with my xbox like the ps3 does with the psp. For example you may have seen the footage of a psp being used as a wing mirror while playing f1 on the ps3. More of this type of shit is cool for expanding video game content.

In terms of music, I am coming round to the idea of subscription based services like napster because when you break it down, 90% of music isn’t worth owning and the monthly fees represent good value. Even apples model is a subscription service, the only difference being that you have to subscribe to their hardware instead.