Speaking as a citizen of the world. Obama in Berlin 08

That’s a funny sentiment that I kind of agree with. The whole idea of Change is pretty easy to make fun of because its non specific.

The last 8 years is an example of horrible decision making by our admin in almost every area.

Status quo is unacceptable and we will be better off with any new admin.

I actually like a lot of the economic ideas that Ron Paul has, but talk about a radical change…he wouldn’t get anything done in Congress.

I think either way it’s a no win for whoever is next. The past 8 years has set up a lot of stuff for pure failure. Someone will have to be incredibly good to keep it all from hitting the fan. The most I expect is that someone really good would be able to soften the blow that’s coming. I don’t think there’s any way the next potus won’t catch the backwash from the past 8 yrs when they might’ve actually been halfway decent under “normal” circumstances.

or they will rise to the occasion like fdr…dont see that from obmma, but who knows. His recent trip to eu, ok, his handing out campain documents in the eu…questionable, his asking for contributions from the folk in the EU…bad juju

all i know is that they are both not very far apart on the issues, both have flip flopped equally. mccain is a dodering, unpredictable old man who has almost run his campaign into the ground twice, while obama is highly intelligent and has brought his campaign from being a long- shot candidacy into the most powerful political campaign ever, based on the support of ordinary people. (average campaign donation 197 $) yeah, he had a slow finish in the primaries based on his performance in states where 15% of the elctorate openly admitted to being racist, but mccain was nominated by accident in a 3 way race while being viciously attacked by prominent figures in his own party.

the way i see it, obama has put together a crack campaign team and administrated it expertely, all while showing excellent leadership and inspirational skills. this is exactly what is required of a president. mccain has a team staffed by lobbyists, he had a huge shakeout a few months ago, and has been dismissing like 1 top advisor a week ever since. he looks indimidated and frightened every time he gives a speech, just look on youtube.

like good ol’ dubya, mccain is a mediocre politician of mediocre intelligence content to let himself be installed in the top seat and advised by powerful special interests. his ace in the hole is that he managed to be shot down 40 years ago. i want my country to be governed by a winner, not a loser. which politician fits in which role?

I truly dislike people and their insistance on basing someone on their “flip flopping”. Because it’s always interpreted as “YOU CHANGED YOUR VIEWS CAUSE YOURE A BAD PERSON” rather than “You mean you read facts about a specific situation and changed your opinion on something?”

In fact - I think for that reason ALONE it causes politicians to DEFEND dumb ideas that they might have agreed with in the past, soley on the premise of “If I back out now I’ll be a flip flopper and I’ll never hear the end of it”.

I liked McCain in 2000. I know he used to visit the daily show quite a bit and he always spoke like an intelligent person with a good set of ideals. I think running for president though just means when you’re talking to people non-stop for 2 years on the campaign trail it’s a lot easier to say stupid things. And I think given the terrible situation our country in he comes off as a “more of the same” candidate which I don’t think anyone really wants.

Unfortunately the candidate for change I firmly believe is going to drown our economy with “stimulations” of fake money and just progress the problems of inflation at an unbelievable rate. Obama is the candidate for change…but I think a lot of people may realize 2 years from now that the change went in the wrong direction.

I sure hope I get proved wrong. :neutral_face:

Well I’m a Cub fan so maybe I’m not the best judge of winners & losers. I personally like OBom. I mean hoops with the troops, Oprah seal of approval, and that gotham typeface - I’d like to douse it with mustard & relish & just eat it up. Those of us here who’ve been following him since Bobby Rush cleaned his clock in the 2000 congressional elections have marveled at the run he’s been on. In particular, the way the chips fell & stars aligned as he waltzed into the Senate in 2004 was one for the ages.

However, I must be in the minority when I say I’m underwhelmed at these landmark speeches everyone gushes over. Vague, derivative, distilled - what am I missing? There’s no doubt that lately he’s been attracting A-list wonk talent (300 advisors for his near-east/Euro pre-victory lap?!), but the core of that crack team of his is still built on the lakefront liberals and party machine hacksters responsible for bringing us such ground breaking intitiatives like the foi gras ban, big retailer bans in blighted neighborhoods, & perpetual construction season. Perhaps if they were running for head of FEMA or the endowment for the arts, I would feel better about it.

Only the worst cynic would suggest that OBom is doing bad in red states because of racisim. I don’t care what poll you dig up, its wrong. Communities with traditions of self-reliance, patriotism, and local determination don’t support higher taxes, over-regulation, and de-militarization? Of course, they must be facists. That’s the sort of crap that drives the notion that the ignorant noble savages outside the enlightened urban centers can’t be trusted with their own money or to make decisions for themselves.

I’m sorry, but if i remember correctly 10-15 % of hillary voters in WV stated in exit polls that “race was a factor”. Don’t know how you can spin that in any way. Of course race isn’t the only reason that a centrist liberal candidate is doing badly in conservative states, but nobody is saying that. And before anyone brings this up, race is undoubtedly a factor for many black obama supporters, but nobody can claim that this is equivalent to “reverse racism”. A group of people who were treated as property for 300 years wanting to see one of their own in the highest office in the land, 40 years after their oppression ended is pretty much inevitable.

I was thinking to stay out of this dance b/c I tend to follow the adage of don’t discuss religion or politics. I always end up pissing someone off in these discussions. But I am a blabber mouth. So here it goes:

One thing I want for Christmas (November will be sufficient) is for the US to get really, really introspective over the next several months. There really is a LOT more to the planet than the lower 48 (Hawaii is only for vacations and Alaska is occupied by American Grizzly Bears :wink: ).

I am an American that has been living in Canada for 14 years now. When I moved here I bled Red, White, and Blue. I hadn’t travelled much (at all?). I basically believed every word of the “Go USA” rhetoric. That patirotism has been whittled away at significantly. In fact, my affinity is to a global community, not a passport designation.

We’re in a completely different era than 233 years ago when the country formed. Isolationism is silly. We live on a really small marble hurtling through space and Americans think that the world revolves around them.

So, where I am going with this, is that from everything I see, Obama is EXACTLY what the States need. If 15 % - 20% of voting was based on race, than push a “minority” in their face and show them that they’re capable of running the show.

Contrary, put a black man into “The Man’s” seat and take away the argument that minorities can’t get ahead. Strip some power from the Al Sharpton’s of the world.

The US is a wonderful country and has a lot of cool stuff going on because of Capitalism. But Socialism isn’t all bad. Some belief that we’re all working to rise a communal tide would be nice, wouldn’t it? No one likes free loaders, but there’s a point where you have to stop and ask what can we do about this whole globe and not this little chunk of land crammed between Canada and Mexico.

The black and white of Americans when it comes to politics is tiresome. Step out and look at things from a global perspective. There are some damn good reasons why a huge chunk of this planet despise us. And no, I am not being too harsh when I say despise. I see it even here in Canada.

I know this is going to piss off a lot of people. So, there you go.

How about this spin. Those exit polls you cite aren’t representative of what people actually believe.

From Wikipedia:

A more fundamental statistical problem with exit polls is selection bias. The polls, though typically much larger than regular opinion polls, still sample only a small fraction of voters. In a heterogeneous population, sloppy selection of the sample can tilt results to any direction. This pitfall can be avoided if the polling organization is competent enough. However, there are problems more inherent to the nature of exit polls. Since the clients (the media) want to publicize results as soon as the real polls close, exit polls must close a few hours earlier. Therefore, late-hour voters are not sampled at all.

More on this here:

In a gimme race like W Virginia, I’d venture to guess exit polling procedures were less than precise in execution.

have to agree with this one.

since i’ve started getting into politics on the internet, the outright xenophobia of alot of the right wing sites is frankly scary. im talking like redstate.com and that type of thing. mexicans are dirt, europe are sinister liberals, china is evil, and of course middle easterners are terrorists. the fact that a leader is liked overseas is actually a strike against them in their book.

honestly i’m conservative at heart, but the sheer idiocy of the right wing here forces me to be a liberal.

I have to severely disagree with you there. It was pretty common knowledge that when Obama first started really getting some recognition that the blacks would probably be the least optimistic about him. Those years of oppression had a different effect, that of self-hatred and low self-esteem. Many blacks in this country don’t think that a black man could possibly be a good president because they have low expectations of themselves. There is a sort of cultural brainwashing that happened which is why you’ll hear terms like “acting white”, etc…in the black community that comes from accepting the lowly position as the status quo. Anybody who isn’t happy with that and who actually tries to better themselves is “acting white” or not keeping it real. Bill Clinton was accepted by lots of blacks as the first black president because he was a bit of a social f**k up with the smokin, bj’s, cheating on his wife, etc…(yeah see, he’s one of us!)
In the beginning, Hillary was getting a huge amount of black support, until she started trying a little to hard with her negative campaigning and started slapping us in the face. That’s when she lost her black support and Obama became the obvious choice. But you’ll notice that he still wasn’t getting much support from prominent black “leaders?(according to?)” like Jackson and Sharpton. All you get is what you call “haterade”. And he was getting comments like he’s not “black enough” because he’s not ghetto, whiny, and actually got an education and made something of himself.
So I really do beg to differ. Obama being black was not the main reason for his black support, it’s that he seems like a normal person that is wiling to listen. None of the other politicians have that, they come off like they have to be rigid and one way and things have to be done the way they always have or else they’ll be a weak flip-flopper, etc. That attitude doesn’t sound good to the black community, that means more of the same which historically hasn’t panned out to well for us. We were waiting for someone who seems actually encouraging and willing to try something different

Step out and look at things from a global perspective. There are some damn good reasons why a huge chunk of this planet despise us. And no, I am not being too harsh when I say despise. I see it even here in Canada.

Hell yes. I think the rest of the world must think Americans are a bunch of marshmallow people. We need to be more like them.

Canada 1-1/2 mil bpd of tar sand petro and supplying 20% of total US comsumption. Norway the undisputed global king of offshore drilling and Brazil finding 30 billion barrels in Campos Basin. I guess their outer continetal shelf isn’t as fragile as ours. China with no domestic oil instead of whining about speculators, they take what they do have, coal, and build several liquification plants due to go online in the next few years.
And finally, my personal hero Sarkozy & France getting 80% of their energy from nuclear.

We need to stick it to the man and stop him from puttin us down.
Come on world, help us help ourselves so we don’t drag you down with us.


“American Solutions for Wining the Future”

hahah. That’s funny. You realize that its not a football game, right?

While more domestic drilling and resource exploitation is probably going to be necessary, its far from a real solution. Not to mention the amount of time (some say about 10 years) it will take for any of those efforts to materialize on the market. Unfortunately oil is a globally traded commodity…doubt it will make much of a dent. I worry that many people think that we can go up into ANWR or offshore and gas will come back down in a year or 2. sorry, its not going to happen.

a looooong term commitment to alternative sources is the only thing that will get us out of the hole we’ve dug ourselves into.

I have to disagree with this one. I am conservative and from the stereotypes you have listed, you have failed to give the reasoning behind some of these thoughts.
“Mexicans are dirt”- Not true. Illegal immigrants that come into the country and raise crime rates, consume welfare $ because of having numerous children, never try to get employeed, ect. are “dirt”. Those that come in and are productive members of society, support their families, pay taxes and stay out of trouble are fine.

“Europe are sinister liberals”- This goes back a long ways but countries that want to wear the badge of “Supporting the War Against Terror” yet, their contribution is parking a (One) ship in the Persian Gulf and sitting their just in case something happens is rediculous. Througout history, there have been alot of countries who have helped prevent other from being taken over and now those that were saved are the ones sitting back, avoiding conflict, and watching the rest of the world fight it out. I think there are “some” countries that may deserve that title and “some” that do not. If, for some reason, something as bad as 9/11 were to happen on their home turf, that might change the way people look at it.

“China is Evil”- Many blue collar workers are having jobs taken away every day because of cheap labor in China. You would be upset too to know that a job you have been working at for 30 years is now being transfered to China and being done by someone half the age, half the experience, and half the price. However, although most don’t like it, most do understand it. Capitalism.

“Middle-Eeasterners are Terrorists”- Are there stereotypes? Yes. Did they give us reasons to hate them? Yes. However, “Most” (not all, unfortunately) understand that there are extremists everywhere. There are people in every walk of life that take things to the extreme. Unfortunatley, as the World Trade Centers were falling and the media began putting images of Osama Bin Laden all over the screen wearing a turbin, many people (both liberal and conservative) began viewing it as a symbol of terrorism. Is it fair to the 99% of middle-easterners who wear turbins and are genuinely good people to be labeled as terrorists because a small group ruined the image? No. But it is unfortunately a fact of life that people will judge.

This is just my views and I don’t expect everyone to agree.

cavsball- i’m not trying to paint all conservatives with a broad brush here, i’m talking about alot of the more extreme ones. while you do list some things that would make some people dislike some of these countries, what i perceive is more a feeling of dislike and distrust of anyone who’s not american. thats a dangerous attitude for a large chunk of the population to have. thats the kind of thing that lead to the iraq war “we dont need no permission slip”

as for the example of europeans “letting other people fight for them”, why would they want to fight in a baseless war that they opposed from the start? I was living in germany during the run-up, and we knew about the forged yellowcake uranium documents, we knew about the nonexistant “mobile chemical weapons trailers”, we knew about the photoshopped missile bases. i remember seeing a show that completely evisirated colin powells famous speech, proving why most of what he was saying wrong while he was talking. of course back then this was all just euro commie propaganda, right?

and then, to eveyone’s dismay, we invaded, weakening the UN in the process. the most powerful country in the world, running into armed conflict willy nilly, is it any wonder they distrust us?


We will obviously have to agree to disagree here. I have very different views of all the issues you’re calling out.

To my original point, all of what you’re calling out is isolationist. Protect the USA first, not the globe. 1000 years ago (heck even 100 years ago) I understand the necessity for isolationist mentality. But we’ve very rapidly entered into a “Global Community”. Where the sooner we think of ourselves as working to rise the tide for all, and not just the good ol’ US of A, we’ll be far better off.

It is my belief that everyone (not just the USA) will be better off once they can drop the patriotism. Whether its a religious based patriotism or a governmental based patriotism, we’ll be far better off as a planet.

Lastly, no country is perfect. You’re calling out of other countries for having flaws isn’t necessary. How about we look at what’s being done correctly around the globe and start using those as examples of how to improve life for everyone? Rather than get into finger pointing debates of what everyone is doing wrong?

isolationism and nationalism is a tricky one. While I’ll agree that improving peoples quality of life in any corner of the world is a good thing, I’m not too excited about the idea of a select few globetrotting while a large chunk of ‘local’ population is working poor. People like to use the example of an iPod, $300 retail, $80 of which goes to Apple and $4 of which goes to the factory in China. Apple’s office employs a lot fewer people (with high individual pay) than said factory (low individual pay). So sure the US’s GPD goes up but that doesn’t really reflect the fact that we are continuing to spread out the rich-poor gap.

I’ve got a feeling what we will see as a result is the rise of cities and corporations and the fall of nations (and a not terribly peaceful fall I might add). Unfortunately corps are law bound (but which countries laws!?) to put quarterly earnings first for the sake of their shareholders (mid-upper class again).

BTW we all have the luxury of being designers because we aren’t running around trying to figure out how to feed ourselves…

I want to especially thank Jehan for clearifying the background on why
“the europeans” aka French and German are not fighting in Irak.
(at the moment)

(It would have sounded completely silly and shallow if one of those leftwing europeans like me had posted the same.)

It will need a completely different effort though, to drag the cart out of the dirt (to sort things out) in the middle east within the next 5 years. This will only be possible under UN Leadership, what could lead to even more pain on the US Side, when many of the men and women that went to Irak with best intentions might realise that they were misled and used by a devious government.

The German people and the German Government will not act deaf, if there is a real chance to solve the gordian knot, that uncle George and his Halliburtons left us all behind.

All the best.

Yours mo-i

ya know its funny in a way, when i was young i was liberal, as i age i am more and more conservitive…time teaches i guess.

Which is probably why the old should step out of the way. Yet another reason I like Obama over McCain. Someone who’s 71 years old is (tyipcally) working to preserve status quo before they die when the world needs to progress. The McCains of the world are better suited in advisory roles, not leadership roles, IMO.