Someone stole my bike - Design Plagiarism

Good points above IP and Ono

First post, whee!

I also saw this on the front page, and getting a design copied is my constant fear and dilemma (whom do I show it to, etc).

After looking at the images, I must confess something, though:

The Orca bike is a lot better looking! Just look at how the volumes are connected and how streamlined they are. You can actually follow the flow of the shapes all around the entire frame and back again. And the paintjob emphasizes this while also exposing the carbon fibre material construction. That is design excellence, imo, a sculpture in the form of product design, while the RT700 is simply another well made industrial design product.

Just my 2 cents…

i dunno. i can see the similarities, but think that its more similar solutions to a similar problem than copying.

im no expert on bikes, but to an untrained eye, i see lots of differences and can feel the seat post/tube intergration would be a natural, obvious solution. likewise in the kestral frame geometry.

not calling anyone out here, but would think that in a product with limited solutions engineering-wise (ie. 2 wheels, 1 seat, etc.) that similarities like this are more common than not.

also have to agree the orca solution seems a little more refined. if its not the job of a designer to take an existing solution and take it to the next level, i dont know what is.

laying the blame on asian suppliers is misleading. sure enough, IP doesnt have the same regard or protection in asia as elsewhere. but i think its a red herring.

design is ever-evolving and is always based on the precendent of what comes earlier. i’d say leave the wrangling to the lawyers if need be and dont worry about your last design- push forward to the next one. if you can keep on innovating and thinking ahead your competition will always be one step behind.

R

There are some aspects of the Orca that look better, and more completed. The graphics work especially well with the frame elements. However, an eye for what works on a high-end racing bike, and a familiarity with the rest of the bikes out there, make the refinement and “evolution” arguments invalid, IMHO.

The Orca has tested to be overly stiff on the rear end, due to the massive section joining the seat cluster and seat stays. While this molding strategy is commonly employed to make joining front and rear easier, in this case it’s resulted in a section with what looks like a 3" diameter tube. Absolute stiffness overkill for a seatstay. It does, however, make the visual “flow” off the top tube work better.

The integrated seat clamp accomplishes three functions on the RT700: holds the aero-teardrop-section seatpost; switches to normal round seatpost with removal of plastic plug; integrates rear brake cable stop. All that, plus completing the form of the top tube. There are also little branding elements on the top of the clamp. That clamp was one of the signature details of the bike. The Orca, by contrast, uses the clamp as a design element without the reason for it’s existence. It went from a light, functional, beautiful detail, to an entirely superfluous, stylistic element. There’s even a ‘serif’ on the end of the clamp. To me, that says someone liked the look of the RT’s clamp, but couldn’t achieve the degree of component integration on the Orca.

I completely disagree on the “normal evolution” or “limited engineering solutions” or “logical way the seat clamp has to be attached” arguments. These are the only two bikes out there, that do it this way. And the RT was designed first. The new Trek Madone does it really differently, and with superior carbon engineering. Most other bikes have a normal-looking clamp, non-integrated to the frame.

I have taken down the original posting. There’s nothing provable, of course. And not much to learn or moralize about. But I don’t hear Orbea’s designers bitching about how the Kestrel bikes look like theirs, albeit in a more functional manner that provides benefits to the rider vs. strictly styling exercises. The professionals that ride their bikes are still using the old Orcas, probably because they ride better than the new one, while still having a unique look.

I’m saddened that you took down your original post. It was very informative, as is your last post. I think this thread should be left intact for future reference, as it is interesting and insightful, especially with your last clarifications on form vs. functionality.

Cheers!

Why did you delete the post?
This gives me the perception that you’re backing away from your claim…

I just got back from my morning ride down PCH and pulled behind a guy riding the new Kestrel.

At the light I pointed downt at my Orbea and asked him what he thought. He said he worked for Kestrel and was aware of the controversy, but it wasn’t a big deal. He said they did have a foam model at the same fabricator, but the seat binder wasn’t that unique–they had concepts like that dating back 20 years. He said that nothing much is new in the industry.

I have a feeling there’s more to this story, but you’d really have to dig to find the truth.

Something that jarred my memory about this whole controversy. This whole thing has been bothering me simply because I know I have seen the both Kestrel AND the Orbea designs before.

Scott Robertson of Drawthrough.com fame, shows the potential for Kestrel in January 2003:

And this one looks very similiar to the Orbea, also from the same group in 2003:

Now I’m not accusing anyone of lying, or plagarism, or calling anyone out; but I do think that more information as to who is responsible for what, design and details, should be provided.

Scott R indeed designed some of the original Kestrel bike frames, including the Talon and original Airfoil (predecessor to the Airfoil Pro). It was his Kestrel design DNA which was studied, codified, and incorporated into the new frames, in different ways. I’ve met Scott, watched his videos, and have a lot of respect for him and his work. Truly an innovator both in design portfolio and business strategy. Scott contributed to the Airfoil Pro sketches and concept development, but his concept was not chosen for development.

I’ve taken down the original posting because Kestrel was not amused. As I said however in the first posting, I’m not representing Kestrel in my claims or opinions. But I don’t want to appear to be misrepresenting them.

Thanks for all your interest and commentary.

I’ve been following this thread very closely, but sitting back while figuring out how to comment.

For 2007, my entire cycling team has been racing on the new Orca (www.mockorangeracing.com) I decked mine out with DA 10, but most are racing on SRAM Force. When I first saw pics of the frame, I knew we had to be riding on these. The top-tube is darn wide and the carbon is so thin that you can visually see it flex when pinched. Doesn’t stop it from being strong though. I think the seat-collar was done very nicely, and the seat bridge is just stunning. If it was inspired or stolen from the Kestrel, I must honestly say it is more elegant. Kestrel still can’t get a strong following in the road-racing community. The Evoke was about as close as they got. As for TT bikes, that Airfoil is wicked, but isn’t UCI legal.

As for the pro teams not using the Orca, it’s only because the Opal is stiffer. Jelly Belly and the Basque team, Euscatel Euscadi are both using the Opal for 2007, even though it’s not the premier frame for Orbea’s line-up.

The new Giant TCR advanced has a very similar seat-stay yoke as the Orca and Kestrel. Heck, even the new Madone does. I must say Trek did a fine job with the new Madone. They abandoned their normal “safe” styling and came up with something very sleek. Heck, I’d even consider racing one of them.

Slippyfish…I’ll be contacting you soon in regards to a project I’ve been working on. Nice work on this Kestrel, but I’m still a little unsure as to if it was a true rip-off.

No were not, but in my experience with some of these vendors is once a concept is shown to them (prototyped by them), it is free range to show to other companies as work they have done. I know this has happened to me within the ceiling fan industry. Did work for one high-end company, same week it release so did two mid-range companies nearly identical including the exact glass fixture for the light. Reason being there is one major plant in China manufacturing all the fans and light fixtures for the major brand names.

I do not belive the practice to be honest, but it is something you acce4pt when dealing with manufactuers who are also manufacturing your competitors goods. Designeres are observers of their suroundings, ideas and designs will be seen. Then our designs are expressions of our observations, intentional or subliminal they will influence…or in the worst case mirror. However, this I would consider influences or “work arounds”.

Watching the news last night I saw a feature on a new line of Keen bags which uses old footwear outsoles as the bottom of the bag:

And I thought, hey that looks familiar: Our’s were not recycled outsoles though, we re-used the tooling from the AJIII outsole and midsole:

And then I remember where I got the idea from: the nike SB Dunk Bg (couldn’t find a picture) they made a new bottom tool inspired by a shoe: inspirational evolution…

Naoto Fukasawa also had a go at that idea (don’t know when though)
the aptly named “sole bag”

The nike one looks sweeto, I didn’t see it before.

There was also a Puma Mostro bag a while ago. With similar rubber nubs on the bottom like the outsole.

In the end, sometimes just great minds think alike!

R

This thread caught my eye. I posted a similar thread a few months back when something similar happened with a bicycle I worked on in school that got a bit of press. Situation’s a bit different, since they’re both student concepts, though. I got a kick (and a bit of a shock) out of it… mostly because he must have had some serious balls. I would have been expelled so fast for pulling something like this! Coincidence or not, I don’t know: but check out the camera angle on that rendering.

Some of you might remember this design (This is the one I worked on):

Well, then I saw this: (Which a student actually submitted to a well known competition 2 years later!)
http://student.designawards.com.au/application_detail.jsp?status=2&applicationID=923

come on.

the back wheels are similar, but thats about it.

your front wheel (the normal one) is also like every other bike. that mean its too close to regular bikes and a ripoff? of course not.

your design is far better than the second one, but i hardly see any reason to get in a tizzy.

one could also then say that your frame is similar to the newson biomega bike…

It wasn’t so much the actual design-- but the concept and approach that was strikingly similar. Especially the copy that went along with it. The back wheels are similar because they really “are” the concept.

I realize bikes have similar parts, etc… but this was an example of two quite odd bikes (both claim to teach/aid in balance) and both are using the exact same approach of pivoting back wheels.

These are just student concepts though :slight_smile:

Someone from Orbea USA left a comment on my blog about this subject. See the joint letter from Kestrel and Orbea about this issue here:

http://www.orbea-usa.com/download/Kestral_orbea_letter.pdf

very interesting. It is a small world.

That degree of complementary joint problem resolution in highly competitive markets is extremely rare, and to be commended.

Yet it took “an outsider” to bring public their previous private held opinions from trade show observances (often a nasty eye-opening experience).

I too thought the use of the word thief on the front page rather hasty, a bit ignorant, possibly slanderous.

There is a lesson here: be conscientious of what you claim is your work vs. what you contributed to a corporate project, during and after completion.

I would like to see this letter posted on the front page of the Core77 blog along with some kind of apology to Orbea.

This is the kind of stuff that can damage a company reputation. Orbea, quite frankly, has every right to be right pissed off about this one.