Pirating an Entire Corporation

http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/04/27/business/nec.php

Begs the question for some people: at which point is piracy wrong? Reverse-engineering isn’t illegal in many countries. And we know of plenty product knock-offs that look hyper-similar but aren’t the real thing (just look at all the iPod rips). These guys did their own R&D and developed their own product even. So what that they used the NEC logo. It’s not like stealing a car, right? The logo is intangible. Like music. And it’s okay to pirate music right? and software? Everyone has pirated software, right? So what’s so wrong about hijacking a brand? It’s not a car or anything tangible. Heck, let’s just get rid of all the IP laws. The patent system isn’t helping me; it’s actually hindering me because I can’t fight the deep pockets of corporate idea theives. That’ll shut the RIAA and MPAA and all the rest up. Right?

How would you like someone using your name

I wouldn’t.

I suppose I need to point out that I’m being facetious and sarcastic. People probably know where I stand on the issue. It’s why I maintain the open source software thread so people don’t have to pirate.

I think the article is funnier than anything else.

With regards to comparing this to shared music and software, they are two different things. In one, people are copying the original works. In this case, someone is making a similar product, but labeling it something different. It would be more equivalent of sticking a Beatles cover over a Brittany Spears CD…someone will be disappointed when they actually use the product.

Csven: Your rant kinda reminded me of George Carlin’s ten commandments (don’t ask how). I think everyone in society would agree that to lie and deceive is bad. However, when does sharing and copying become bad?

So if I were to copy your company’s designs, make them myself, put your company logo on it and then sell the product as if it’s the original, that’s okay? I could put a 1mm bump underneath somewhere to ensure it’s not an exact copy.

I’m now in agreement with Lessig who has recently made it clear that “free doesn’t always work” and that the creator should decide. Creators often decide to license their work to corporations who then license it to consumers. I don’t have a problem playing by those rules. If I don’t like the rules, I don’t make up my own.

Mis-representation is bad. Copying can be bad, it depends. Sharing is good. This is what I learned in pre-school.

Saying that you represent my company, or your products come from my company is wrong because the consumer may not understand what they are buying. However, if you make a product extremely similar to mine, but call it your own, I think it is disappointing, but acceptable behaviour. The last bit isn’t anything new, it’s called following trends, albeit closely.

So? Does this mean you support piracy or not? Isn’t that really “forced sharing” and not sharing at all? The terms by which people purchase music, movies and software are clear: we don’t own the content, only the material media on which is was delivered (until recently). If we don’t like the terms that come with a purchase of that license, the solution is simple: don’t buy it. Yet what we have is “forced sharing”. Where do you stand?

What if they fully understood what they are buying is not your company’s product? Careful here.

Is that how the law works? Is that how IDers respond when they see a knock-off that looks almost like theirs but is very slightly different?

I don’t like the terms “piracy” or “illegal downloading”. Those words make the decision of legality and morality before anyone even thinks about it. So to be clear, I am against any forcable takeover of ships on the high seas, but I am for sharing and copying works for certain purposes.

If we don’t like the terms that come with a purchase of that license, the solution is simple: don’t buy it.

I totally agree. There are several CDs that I want, but carry “copy-protection”. I don’t buy any CD that has that, nor do I download them. I feel like that company has made a decision for me, and I’m not comfortable with their decision (ie, they have decided that I am too immature to control myself from making 100 copies of the CD and heading down to the flea market to hawk them).

What if they fully understood what they are buying is not your company’s product? Careful here.

If the consumer understands they are buying a knock-off, sure, let them buy. But, it has to have some kind of distinguishable characteristic that identifies exactly what it is. In other words, I think a Tag-Heuer-like watch with a badge that says “Tag Heuer” is wrong…it can be misrepresented.

As for products that are similar, there are laws that protect designs to a degree. For functionality there are stronger laws, and I agree with those, as long as they balance rewarding the creator with the greater society’s freedom. I think I should profit if I make a unique creative solution, but I don’t think my grand-kids should profit from the same solution in 100 years time.

I think most IDers are quite pissed when they see knock-offs. Since I’ve worked at a lighting company, I’ve gotten very comfortable with it! Almost every lighting company in the world produces a light that is a white cylindrical shade hanging from the ceiling (we make two). I really don’t think a solution like that should be patented for the life of one creator + 50 years. That’s just plain ridiculous to me.

Of course they imply decisions have been made regarding legality! That’s why I’m using them. Those terms are specific. I’m talking about “illegal downloading”. Not the legal sharing which, btw, is best exemplified by Neil Young’s sharing his new album via his website - http://www.neilyoung.com/ (courtesy of today’s Boing Boing).

Spare us the cute remarks, please. Especially this old and tired one. I’d rather not form an opinion of you based on them.

Copy-protection is not the issue here.

Companies and the law have always made that decision. At no time in modern history has it been acceptable to buy music and make duplicates beyond a back-up. It’s simply never been an issue because prior to digital recording, multiple generations of perfect copies were beyond the ability of average consumers to create.

Don’t confuse Digital Rights Management with the laws governing IP (which includes design).

Then can I assume that when I do this with your company’s products, I can quote you, use this as legal justification, and proceed to sell products based on your designs using your company’s name so long as consumers understand that the product is not made by your company? Yes or No answer please.

Why is it you seem to feel laws that protect aesthetics are okay but then seem to regard similar laws protecting music, movie, and software as imposing? What makes design more worthy than the others? Why protect you and not them?

There are stronger laws? Really? Care to elaborate?

No one is saying distorted IP laws are good. The corporations have corrupted the system, but that doesn’t mean the concept is bad. But most of what’s being illegally downloaded doesn’t fall into the 100 years category; more like Upon Release. Is that a fair balance for a creator?

The reality is that factories in China will produce what they are asked to produce," he said. “The challenge is finding out who placed the orders and who funded it.”

Above is the last paragraph from the artical.

The angle to take is actually identical to prohibition. The end consumer DOES NOT CARE what, how, where, who, when, made the illegal NEC product. They just want it.

People will always make moonshine. How do companies along with the legal authorities protect their property?

Distribution is the key. If you know the market, I can’t see how NEC couldn’t find their copyhouse easier.

http://www.mobilemag.com/content/100/354/C7622/

Nice link Infini

This shows the cut and dried fully illegal no doubts copy. Ferrari probably is not too hot because their ideal customer looks for authenticity and, quite likely, is a bit of a sleuth before any purchase.

I believe there are less than 425 Enzo’s on the planet.

Anyway, the link further fortifies my point that the end consumer really does not care to police a brand name. Likewise the manufacturing facility (at the front end of things) is not going to police the brand either.

Distribution is still in the middle - right where the problem could be nipped. then follow the food chain.

To me the distribution is like a Thermometer. The thermometer does not fix the cold, but helps decide which medicine is chosen.

I see this as a much bigger issue.

For those who saw the movie “A Beautiful Mind”, the scene in the bar where he figures out his big theory is very related imo. People do most definitely feel entitled to take whatever they want - laws or not. However, the effect of that kind of selfish behavior can have detrimental effects. Again, as demonstrated in the film.

The issue closer to home is what happens when people can make digital copies of your product using increasingly advanced 3D scanners (including those that see inside a product in the event components are sealed). Now this can be my design for a corporation or my own design that I sell via fab-on-demand. If it’s for a corporation, I don’t really feel the immediate impact. If it’s for my own business, I’m in trouble. So does this mean the only option for most designers - even if the tools for production and distribution come within individual reach - is to work for a corporation; an entity who can to some degree protect my interests?

That’s the end result of this “forced sharing” idea and the result of an entitlement attitude. Someone making moonshine is breaking a societal law based mostly on relativistic moral codes. Stealing ideas impacts individuals directly. It has a negative impact on society by not rewarding risk and creativity and innovation. But mostly it has a negative impact on the creators. That includes us.

From my experience a functional patent is easier to defend than a design patent. Design patents only seem to work when the design is perfectly copied and the offended company has deep enough pockets to nail the offending company. I don’t think that design patent law should be strengthened, and I don’t think that my designs should be more protected than music, movies or software.

With regards to terminology, I still don’t like the term “illegal downloading” or “legal downloading” unless its being used with a specific case study. So often I hear people say “illegal downloading” refering to any downloading outside iTunes and that’s just not the reality, as you pointed out already.

My mention of high-seas piracy was cute, but I think that word is used a little too freely. It is a loaded word, associated with seedy, immoral and indefensible acts. The use of “piracy” is an attempt to push the social discourse away from arguing true merits and towards the kinds of sound-bits that create unforseen errors. As such, I’ll belittle the term every chance I get. Moreover, I can tell from your detailed responses that you don’t want that sort of demagoguery either.

DRM is different from IP laws, but it is like companies becoming IP vigilantes. I’m not comfortable with companies suing or threatening tens of thousands of people in order to enforce their opinion of what they have sold. In my opinion, the balance between immoral copying and fair-use is being decided for society by only one stakeholder. That makes me uncomfortable as a citizen.

Then can I assume that when I do this with your company’s products, I can quote you, use this as legal justification, and proceed to sell products based on your designs using your company’s name so long as consumers understand that the product is not made by your company? Yes or No answer please.

No. If the product could be misconstrued as another, I think it deceptive and should not be allowed. Even if most consumers understand that it is a copy.

The corporations have corrupted the system, but that doesn’t mean the concept is bad. Is that a fair balance for a creator?

I think we are both in agreement on the big issue of boundaries, we are just disputing where midfield should be located.

That doesn’t mean the law governing them is any different. Both are, afaik, equally protected. The issue here is defending against infringement. That’s not a stronger law issue, but an interpretation issue.

With regards to terminology, I still don’t like the term “illegal downloading” or “legal downloading” unless its being used with a specific case study. So often I hear people say “illegal downloading” refering to any downloading outside iTunes and that’s just not the reality, as you pointed out already.

I don’t hear that. And I can’t understand how there’s a problem saying either “legal downloading” or illegal downloading". Is there another kind?

My mention of high-seas piracy was cute, but I think that word is used a little too freely. It is a loaded word, associated with seedy, immoral and indefensible acts. The use of “piracy” is an attempt to push the social discourse away from arguing true merits and towards the kinds of sound-bits that create unforseen errors. As such, I’ll belittle the term every chance I get. Moreover, I can tell from your detailed responses that you don’t want that sort of demagoguery either.

Fair enough. I can dispense with using that term (along with “surfing”). The issues remain.

DRM is different from IP laws, but it is like companies becoming IP vigilantes. I’m not comfortable with companies suing or threatening tens of thousands of people in order to enforce their opinion of what they have sold. In my opinion, the balance between immoral copying and fair-use is being decided for society by only one stakeholder. That makes me uncomfortable as a citizen.

Simple. Then don’t buy their product. But there’s also absolutely no justification for finding it online and downloading it either That’s theft, pure and simple.

You know, someone could (unreasonably) say that high-prices are a form of DRM. That because they live in a country where everything is cheap and wages are low, $100 for 3D software (I’m using a recent example here) is too much even though the developer lives in the expensive U.S., and thus it’s reasonable for that person to simply download it off the net.

Free sure is fair to them. And sure unfair to the guy who pays $1000+ rent a month.

I obviously don’t see as much grey area in an “opinion of what they have sold”. I’m unaware of anyone who sells a license to every consumer who buys their music/movie/software to make unlimited copies and distribute/share them electronically among friends. Even Neil Young isn’t giving that right away I bet. I’ll grant you that there is some grey areas. But let’s not be coy and make excuses for people who rip DVD’s rented from Blockbuster, save low-rez versions to disk, and then share them/copy them for friends at uni.

“Then can I assume that when I do this with your company’s products, I can quote you, use this as legal justification, and proceed to sell products based on your designs using your company’s name > so long as consumers understand that the product is not made by your company> ? Yes or No answer please.”

No. If the product could be misconstrued as another, I think it deceptive and should not be allowed. Even if most consumers understand that it is a copy.

Did you miss something here? See my bolded assurance consumers will not be misled. If the answer is still “No”, then explain it please. Because it sounds as if your being hypocritical.

I think we are both in agreement on the big issue of boundaries, we are just disputing where midfield should be located.

Only I’m wondering why designers so often think the concept of “sharing” doesn’t apply to their work.

For a bit of background on why I’m considering these issues, those who don’t follow technology might be interested in a couple of recent posts of mine:

http://blog.rebang.com/?p=882

http://blog.rebang.com/?p=884

i think one of the main differences between music/game/software downloads and open source design, is who is profiting from it.

When digital information is pirated no one is directly profiting from it.
(i am sure that someone will debate this on a tangential level, but in general this i the case)

When a design is knocked off, bootlegged, pirated, or whatever you want to call it, someone still makes a profit because the idea of a design or product is not really useful to the general public. Most people do not have the means to produce their own items so the person who manufactures or supplies the unscrupulous merchandise does profit.

I have a corresponding cd for every song on my mp3 player and i try not to buy things that i recognize as a knock off but, If people were giving away bootleg designer furniture and sony tv’s for free i’d have a whole i-pod full of them.

the idea of a design or product is not really useful to the general public.

That may be true today. But within a year that may change. Fab on demand is just around the corner. It’s why reasonable discussion should happen now. Just because the technology hasn’t reached product design now, doesn’t mean it won’t. Ten years ago there was no mp3 format. What happened to NEC will likely happen to all of us in the next ten years.

Fabrication on demand is the reason I’m interested in IP laws. I think as the cost of home fabrication decreases, it is going to change all professions related to manufacturing, from marketing, engineering, sales and design. It will be a whole different world.

^^ That’s interesting. A lot of software developers are adopting the quicktime model, where you download the software, but only a portion is operable (like quicktime viewer), you purchase a serial number to unlock the rest of the program. Of course that serial number is available on several search engines… several other programs have annoying counters or screens or advents, or serious limitations (like not being able to save) unless you purchase the serial number.

but suppose a product was like that. You download the rights to print it on your home fabricator… sounds kind of star trekish, but could happen. You essentially pay for the IP.

It will be interesting to see how the music industry nets out. There are ways around the encoded mp3’s and what not…