Listen kid, go to church and pray to rid your nervous, anctious worries.
It’s okay, go ahead and b free.
livE|3vil
I will try to take a shot at this one.
Hi!
If you have not sold your design to a company, or agreed to “give” it to them, you can (if able to prove that it´s your design) take legal actions claiming your “unregistered design right”. I know that this is possible within the EU but allso quite sure that the same thing goes for the US…
Wish you the best of luck
Regards
Daniel
Thanks been there, once again, for your feedback.
I have few more continuation questions to my earlier post.
If I do decide to go public, what would be the best way? How to contact the mass publicity means? Now that the patent has been filed and we’re about 89% sure that the patent will eventually go through, should I believe that I am ready for mass exposure?
I do have few connects with serious business ownerS who also own factories in China, also for the more temporary production of limited amounts of the product, I know of a shop that may be interested in a deal to produce some more.
But what would be the proper or best way to go about it?
HoW, Who to approach??
It is too late, at this point of time, for me to rid of my love for my idea, as I believe it will inevitably be loved, desired and consumed by the masses.
Maybe even become a necessity
Thanks again for your desire to help and inform all of us.
Been there, I think you should become a paid advisor for Core — compel them to beef up their content regarding IP and product introduction.
Core, I think you should beef up your IP and product introduction sections! The articles you post now and then about start up design firms are TERRIFIC, but they are few and far between, don’t seem to be updated, and don’t come fast enough!
Personally, I’m parched. Could use longer and more frequent visits to the IP (etc) well.
A couple more points:
-
I am not a lawyer and provide the following only as my own opinion. For real legal advice consult a qualified attorney.
-
A $15K patent is cheap. My employer has spent close to $60,000 (USD equiv.) getting a patent on which I am listed as 1/2 inventors. The process has taken 5 years and about 1/3 was spent at the USPTO and the rest was for EPO and CIPO. That doesn’t include my time spent meeting with the lawyers to explain the various details and rebutting any objections made by the patent examiners. We’ll probably spend another $5000 or so before the its all over.
-
Telling your family and friends without NDA is still considered disclosure. If you’re not sure, don’t tell. They’re not called trade secrets for nothing.
-
A design patent will only protect you from blatant rip-offs. They will not protect against a functional copy with a different shell.
-
Any kind of patent application does offer you the protection of a priority date… thus labelling with “patent pending” provides more than just a psychological effect. With your priority date, you can insist that a competitor stop making/selling/using your patent pending invention within the protected jurisdiction. When (if?) the patent is approved, you can go back and sue for the infringement during the period in which the patent was still pending… provided that they continued to infringe after being told to stop.
-
Unless you have the financial resources to chase down infringers, a utility patent is really only worth the marketing buzz of being able to say your product is patented. Typically, the litigation is often a long costly process that costs more than the product is actually worth in lifetime revenues. Do the cost-benefit before dropping the coin.
:)ensen.
This document, including any and all attachments, is confidential and may contain information and/or materials that are legally privileged and/or proprietary to Illen Products Limited dba Imprint Plus. Any disclosure, use and/or duplication of this document and/or any of the information or materials contained herein for other than the specific purpose for which it was disclosed is expressly prohibited. If you have received this document in error, please notify us immediately and then delete this message from your system. Please do not copy it or use it for any purposes, or disclose its contents to any other person: to do so could be a breach of confidence. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, except where the sender specifically states them to be the views of Illen Products Limited dba Imprint Plus. Thank you for your co-operation.
[quote=“Louise”]Been there, I think you should become a paid advisor for Core — compel them to beef up their content regarding IP and product introduction.
[b]Thanks but I wouldn’t feel right about getting paid. I would rather get “paid” by preventing another designer from getting screwed over like I have. As for Core I think they leave it up to us. We can ask a question 24/7 and have it answered by anyone throughout the world. True freedom of speech and eduaction doesn’t get any better than that.
True, true. Just don’t go on another two year hiatus.
Been There: I’ve been very lucky not to have learned my lessons in the classroom of hard knocks, of which it seems you’re a graduate. Like you I hope somebody can use the infomation to prevent tears and heartache.
:)ensen.
thanks for your input and much respect goes out to your desire to help inform and protect all of us who relate to the processes of creation of new compositions, equations, and systems.
This is one of the richest discussions here in a long time, hopefully CORE will listen up and add a new IP/DESIGN BUSINESS section for those of us running our own show or looking to. Making a good living today as an independent designer is a complex endeavour, but not impossible for the more hard-headed and slightly thick-skinned among us. Having a CORE knowledge base and resource focused strictly on this aspect of ID practice would be tremendous for many designers. The passionate responses this thread has generated is proof the need exists.
To the original poster, in my experience, no contract means no dough. Regarding your work hours, sure you can attempt collecting with all kinds of pricey lawyers there’s never a shortage of, but you’ll likely spend many times more than you are likely to get. Now, the patent story is a different matter and the one battle here I’d fight to the end. Getting your name on a patent as the rightful inventor is not only a question of personal pride but a potential moneymaker for you with future employers and clients who value inventiveness over form giving. I have worked with patent lawyers and have patents to my name but I cannot offer any new advice over the excellent information posted here so far. You might as well print and save this thread for future reference, it’s that thorough.
So much has been said and written everywhere about IP it’s overwhelming to even frequent users of the system, let alone the odd designer mired in the idea protection game. Some personal thoughts …
-
If your concept naturally translates into a high-volume, high-appeal, but low mfg cost product you have entered the big dark seas, so to speak. Predators everywhere and, if you’re in a weak business position you will likely get munched on. Professional crooks, like all investors, tend to eye the surer bets. So if you design for a Target clientele, you’ve probably uncovered a moneymaker for others too.
-
The Patent Office is not what it used to be for the individual inventor, it is Big Business now and - I’ve been there - whoever mentioned $15K total for utility patents was right on.
-
Don’t play this game unless your employer or client has serious bread to back up your invention, not to mention enough eyes to watch over the market for at least the first 1-2 years, time for your stuff to catch on and make a name for itself. If you are an individual inventor proud of the framed patent on the wall, where do you find the time to scan for knock-offs? Every product in every store bound to carry your stuff? By the time you find one (if ever), start and execute all legal procedures, there are maybe hundreds of thousands all around the country and your market is chewed up. Time is of the essence in business because product shelf life is predetermined in the product’s (the idea’s) DNA. In other words, you may sue too late, as it happens more and more today.
-
You cannot be a one-trick pony to survive in any creative business in the 21st century, even less so product design. If you have dedicated years and untold sums to a single genial idea, know that you belong in T.A. Edison’s century when you could still do that and retire rich. Conceptual fluidity, lightning-fast execution and distribution (especially in consumer products) are all that can help. Better five less ground-breaking products in one year than one earth-shattering product covered top-to-bottom in patents that either never makes it to market or is too late to make a difference in anyone’s life anymore.
-
Patent protection is like a house mortgage - the best is none, as in not needing one to begin with. Patent lawyers and the USPTO owe a great share of their comfortable lifestyles to some natural traits many creatives have in abundance - pride, vanity, greed, narcissism and the like. This urgency in many of us to preserve for posterity and financially profit from every creative synapse firing is a major cash cow for those outside looking in but the ROI for most designers next to nil. Good ideas do not have to be eternally monetarily profitable, nor is it in society’s larger interest to prevent others from building on existing inventions. The sad fact is the patent system today often functions as a deterrent to innovation, as many companies discover when they are forced to abandon good concepts because of dangerous proximity to some patented idiocy that was never made or sold.
-
I respect every creative person’s right to earn a living off their work and talents, as in all professions, but REASONABLE is our sticking point since no one wants to define it. Where do we draw the line as to what represents just compensation for a given idea? We always want more but we forget it is the manufacturer and distributor who invest and risk the most and are thus entitled to a much bigger piece of the pie. Any worthwhile product idea that is expedited from sketch to shelf in a relatively short time frame will make “some” money usually, manufacturers know this. But designers shouldn’t be in this business to dominate the globe with one or two products for decades anyway, it is hardly testimony to above-average creativity. If you are a one-idea, one-product company your odds aren’t great.
-
The surest way to make money off your beloved ideas is precisely to NOT fall in love with any of them, this is not the place to be faithful, not to mention some of them will actually lie or even turn on you. These are the duds you put hundreds of hours of work in only to find out no one needs them. Yes, ideas are a dime a dozen, stupid ideas that is, the kind you actually want to give away for free to the many crooks around.
-
Design is best protected by intelligently designing its DNA so it requires no artificial add-on protection. This could be a 10-page dissertation but there is such a thing as intrinsic idea protection in the form of innovative and profitable products that do not attract the copy artists, i.e. they have a built-in protection mechanism making duplication too high a risk or impractical for others. Know thy enemy, it can be called. If you’re at the stage where legal IP protection is your only shield, it’s too late. The mere printing of patent numbers on your product indicates to competitors you feel vulnerable and have already figured out there’s money to be made. So you are actually inviting competition by advertising how precious and unique your idea is. And the competition is interested not just in your specific market but anything neighboring or even slightly overlapping. I worked for a firm that actually helped uncover an untapped product market for a large competitor simply because they attracted attention through a barely-related but thoroughly patented product.
-
For most consumer or industrial goods, unless life-changing technologies or hundreds of thousands of R&D dollars are involved, patents are not worth considering, given their high initial and maintenance expenses, especially for the little guy.
For most of us in the ideas-selling business what works well is generating and implementing quickly, moving on to the next one, and keep repeating. Not only will you score more hits, you will build a name for yourself as a generator of profitability instead of renderings and that reputation alone is worth more than any contract. Whether you sell your ideas on paper or boxed, few are the firms willing to lose a valuable supplier of good working ideas by screwing you over for small change. They know you’ll move on to the competition if that happens.
This is all from my own experience and in no way does it invalidate what others have said here, on the contrary. I too got taken in for a few small jobs when I started out - one guy cancelled his cheque with the bank after getting the drawings - but I considered that my design Master’s degree, had a glass of cognac when it happened and moved on.
What I wanted to share here, especially with our younger friends getting their first business world knocks, is (1) design your own business proposal thoroughly to avoid potential abuse, (2) remember in business you only have PARTNERS, not friends, and (3) don’t drag on with any project or idea for too long. Remember, you’re a designer because you have (far) more good ideas than the average person. Consider then you won’t live to be 100 or, if you do, chances are by your 90th birthday you’re going to start slowing down a little, maybe travel and see the world. That means, if you want as many of your ideas to see the light of day, you have to move quickly, make whatever you can off a given project and jump to the next. There’s just too much stuff around to be (re)done still.
A fun link for the weekend …
http://www.strangenewproducts.com/
Cheers all.[/url]
Should I use a separate NDA for each individual project that I want prototyped by the same production company? Or can I use a blanket NDA? Any advantages to either way?
Our lawyer has told us that one well-written NDA is all that’s required between entities, provided the people that sign it have signing authority for their company at the time - President, CEO, VP, etc. It’s more important to make sure the NDA covers all the things you want to keep secret or protected. There are many bad NDA’s out there. The best ones seem to have a date and/or time period in which the contract is in effect as well as a comprehensive and specific list of items that are protected.
:)ensen.
Thanks, peoplepersondesign!
Egg, your message is great. Points taken. There is a whole ideological/“ethical” aspect to IP that works in tandem with the legal and business aspects. You pointed to a few.
Great thread.
IP is a true double-edged sword. There are convincing arguments on both sides to show that patent protection either stifles or fosters innovation. It is easy to find ourselves agreeing with elements of each.
Morally, I believe that more information is better, and not just having access to it, but being able to use it as a proper launching point for newer ideas, better methods and superior products.
Ethically, by agreeing to the patent process (everywhere), I have also agreed that I will not infringe on the IP of others. That covenant is payment for my own expectation that the IP in which I share will also be respected by others.
The crux of the matter is rooted in money.
If a particular design has value to society, the inventor can expect some of the value in return. If all the others that make use of the design were to submit royalties all the time, we wouldn’t need the patent process. The only reason to apply for a patent is because a monopoly is the only way to guarantee payment. Society is just not that polite.
It is often pointed out that inventors should just put their work into the public domain so that everyone benefits. Shareware is a good example of this. But is that really fair. For a variety of reasons, there will always be some people that don’t pay. Who is more obliged in this case? Should we go around forcing everyone to pay (RIAA)? If we can, do we create evaluation copies (Rhino)? What about the people who really need something but cannot afford to pay for it (HIV medications)?
It’s not so simple, especially for the creatives. We not only make the IP, but we often have to borrow from the historical record to do it. If I build a thousand dollar amplifer from $50 in chips, is that fair to the consumer? Even if they’ve already set the price, has the IC mfg been paid enough? Is my design work worth that amount of mark-up? Even if the consumer is willing, or even happy to pay, is that a fair amount?
As always, the problem is who should get paid? And how much? I just don’t know. For sure, this is one dilemma that creatives cannot design their way out of.
:)ensen.
This discussion has been fascinating, especially since I am currently studying for the LSAT, and hoping to get into doing IP law. I think Ive mentioned to several people on here my desire to get out of design and do something different (MBA, JD, etc). I recently settled on getting the JD and its discussions like this and others that Ive had which have led me to this choice.
As many have already said in this discussion, you can never undervalue the cost of covering your own ass. There are a lot of people out there that will claim to be your friends, partners, etc, and without really knowing what they are up to you are potentially putting yourself in a very bad situation. I can’t tell you how many stories Ive heard recently about people getting into partnerships to do design work and then one partner screwed the other over on claiming the design, or one partner had an unknown financial problem (drugs, gambling. etc) and did some back dealing to get things secured for themselves and not for their partnership. The last company I worked for was on the verge of chapter 11 and I’m positive that they were doing some not-so-legal things. Thats part of the reason I left.
The lesson is to get everything in writing early and often. If some part of the project changes, your contracts should change right along with it. If you put out money to finance something, get it in writing that you did so and that your partner is supposed to pay you back. If you are working as a freelance designer, this is even more important. Not only should you talk to a lawyer if you are getting into some serious work, but you should also talk to a CPA to get your finances in order and set up an LLC or another form of corporation for yourself. Get your business cash and personal cash in different bank accounts, different banks, whatever, but DO NOT intermingle funds in the same account. If you get sued and your business money is right next to your life saving, rent, and everything else, guess what just got included in funds that you can be sued for.
Go to a store like Borders and in the Social Sciences section there are tons of law books, including really easy to understand books on IP law, trademarks, patents, and copyrights. You can often find the answers you are looking for in these books. Just be your own paralegal. People don’t realize that as the initial creator of something you have immediate rights even without filing a single form. Copyrights, for instance, are guaranteed the second you publish anything. The more you learn the better you will be protected. I wish I could tell people more but unfortunately I just started getting into this.
If you need a lawyer in you area go to lawyers.com, which is a part of lexus nexus. You can look up who the IP laywers and firms are in your area and see how long they have been doing it, how many people they have, and where all of those lawyers got their JD’s. I would also recommend contacting the bar association in your city for information on firms, and laywers that might be of help.
Wow, thanks to everyone for the great advice, and to everyone at Core for giving us a channel to help each other.
mmjohns Your posts have hit a note with me and I wish you the best in your endevors. I’m am sure that we will loose a valuable asset in our profession when you leave. Unfortunately this is a sad occurance that I have seen over the years. It just kills me to think about all of the great designers that I have met that are worn out and often move on to greener pastures. Then we have total BSers that are thriving in design. Oh how I want to scream the truth about so many things that I have encountered. Litterally some of the biggest names in design are con-artists, cheats, liars,
opportunists, ego maniacs etc. Oh the stories I could tell. For that matter the stories that we all could tell. What gets me the most is that someone will tell you something, then you hear the truthful-behind the scenes story and it drives you nuts. Sadly I think altruism/ethics/good will/common courtesy/ and truth are dieing in our profession.
As another note to mmjohns and the countless numbers of designers that are not currently employeed or are looking to leave the design business. Some (but not all) of you may want to look into some alternatives such as being a patent examiner. As the Director of the PTO recently stated the PTO had a goal of hiring 900 new patent examiners this year and hopes to hire 1,000 new examiners in 2006. Many of you do not know this but to be an examiner you need to have a bachelors, so most designers are qualified to do this. There are other issues that I won’t get into now, but I would think that this may be a good avenue for many designers. Other areas could involve becoming a patent agent or drawing patents on the side. This is actually pretty easy and is a damn good way to stay in design so to speak. Even if you did this for a couple of years it would look great on a resume.
A few posters have stated that they would like to add a new catagory at Core. and I would hope that the folks at Core would take it into consideration. There already is a great deal of good information on the Core threads, I would hope that we could reach a new level of resourcefulness by adding a new catagory that will help designers in a professional manner.
One thought would be to call this catagory “Business of Design” which would be posted at the top under “Design Discussions”. In this catagory it would be ideal if everyone addressed issues such as: accounting, royalties, consulting proceedures, design contests, fraud/ethics, insurance, laws & restrictions, employment contracts, taxes, publicity, design related employment alternatives, public disclosure, intellectual property, licensing, patents and trademarks, product liability, contracts etc. etc.
I really believe that this could set an even higher standard for Core and could rapidly and effectively help countless designers worldwide. I would really be interested to hear from others and see what their thoughts are.
been there,
Now that Core has partnered with BusinessWeek, it seems like a dedicated catagory addressing the “Business of Design” would be the logical conclusion…
We cannot let business appropriate design. Designers have to design business.
HOW TO GET IT OUT!!!
Still have not found the best way to Drop the Bomb out there!
Thieves and sponge minded ppl lurk all around,
It’s dark and weary as I struggle in vain, in the early morning, to find the next destination.
Where do I go, now that the patent has been filed, and the prototype is ready but in need of some major make over… But nevertheless in a beautiful working form…
S. O. S.
-X won