$6,400! 
$100/hr x 10 hours = $1000/day
1 concept + model a day = $6000
- 4 hours of f2f consultation = $6400
mine included CAD and CNC models. you? 
nah, you people are soooo by the book…
mine would feature a minimum of six bellydancers showing off their best wares and trembling hips to the sound of a good beat. or maybe lap dancers showcasing the product in the client’s office. now THAT’S a bargain at $6,500! make it a show while you’re at it.
My models will double as one-of-a-kind chocolate truffles, presented by Donald Trump at his exclusive Mar-A-Lago estate resort while broadcast live on NBC.
[quote=“Sucker”]No engineering, no innovation, no materials research, no mandate to “break the mold”, just a couple more form studies … Bet choosing colors will be the real challenge here.
To all of you happy to rip off a credulous client with more money than brains - it will only come back to bite you. Reading here figures like 12K, 15K for b/s “design” projects like this just ensures more design work will flow even faster to those countries you all bitch about.
You can only take someone for a ride so many times, eventually they come to understand how much real sweat, technical skills and true ingenuity they are getting for their dollar. And guess what, they will tell others and eventually find out the Chinese moldmaker has his own on-staff designer who would have done the same for a fraction of the cost, only faster.
What’s more, keeping product design such an expensive luxury few firms can afford locally guarantees proportionally fewer and fewer ID graduates will ever have any steady work in this field in the years to come. And the evidence of that happening is in already.
Shame on you people for applauding such ignorant greed and (unjustified) individual profit at the expense of the future of the entire profession. ID graduates a decade from now will have you here to thank.
**Gaining professional respect (and lifelong work) is never achieved this way.[/**quote]
So true, So true, SO TRUE.
UPDAT<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
OK the project is dead!!! Basically they tried to screw me. I was supposed to get 50% upfront. They said that I need to start ASAP as the deadline was close. I said ok I will start in good faith but the 50% has to be recieved before the 1st (ie. 2nd last presentation)
Anyway the day for the 1st presentation was coming and no money. They wanted me to give them all the sketches and trust them about the money coming in later…
I just cut my losses and told them “nice try”.
So there is a lesson to all you folks who were saying that designers are screwing clients. The reality is that businesses are busy out there to screw us. I have signed contract so I am going to come hard on them. I have everything covered!!!
They will have to pay me 30% plus the time spent on the project. They think they will get away with it.
tell them you know mr cartier
Hey, still haven’t learned anything from this?
YOU’ll be going after them? What planet is this happening on, btw?
Lesson no. 1 in business as in life - what goes around, comes around. They just weren’t the suckers you thought and smelled you out in time, doesn’t mean they were “out to screw you” in the first place, unless you’re just a bitter cynic to begin with.
Good inexpensive lesson for you to remember.
Yet many people insist on undercutting rates to get the clients like this…
Let them go to china, India, and Vietnam (Previous client who I cut ties with just closed 3 plants in china and relocated them to Vietnam after the Chinese province raised minimum wage to about $85 a week.) When a client is that worried about money they care little to none about design, quality, or customer experience. They only care about the profit margin and how to increase the margin through cost cutting instead of continual innovation and product development.
I would even go as far as to bet they gave you an existing product and asked you to emulate it without infringing (assuming they even cared if you did).
Yet many people insist on undercutting rates to get the clients like this…
why make this comment? what does it serve? after our last PMs and your finding out i bill basically at the same rate you do, who is now the person doing the undercutting? and why attack them at all?
A contract is a contract.
I speak on behalf of the clients outsourcing design. Recently I sent out a project with a tight timeline. Since the firm would not start without the PO, and our process takes weeks, I bypassed the system and just had a check cut immediately for the full amount.
It’s not their fault that we need something quick–it’s ours. I would never expect a firm to do work in good faith unless we’ve already established a trustful relationship, and then it would be entirely their choice. As a professional and a designer however, I would never want to put someone in that position.
YKH settle down, I wasn’t meaning it as an attach to anyone. Simply pointing out that when anyone is forced to lowball simply to get a client, or is forced to seek out clients who are only focused on the cutting the bottom line. They will never be seen as providing a valuable service to the project. This is why many people in the product development industry see ID as mearly an overrated draftsman.
I really do not think I imposed that I ment anyone in particular, or that I came off as attacking anyone. Sorry if that is what anyone thought, pehapse it was not as tactfull as it should have been.
Do we really only want high quality high profile work? Is there enough to go around? When work is so abundant we can pick and choose, this is fine but where is the safety net? What about the our failing economy? Oil (plastic) prices doubling? the chance that bush might get re-elected (god help us!)
I guess I just wanted to present suckers arguments in a way that would make people a little less defensive and maybe sway the discussion. (excuse the bush comment)
I understand that everyone wants to profit at the highest level… this is success. It is a game however. The only difference between designers here and designers far east is experience and all that requires is time.
sincerely,
concerned in cincinnati
my issue is that most every post of yours is the same comment with the same “Simply pointing out” excuse for posting it. its old. and its irritating.
“pehapse it was not as tactfull as it should have been.”
its not lack of tact. its the constant repetition.
perhaps you can imagine an older designer. late 40’s. kids heading to college. mortgage payments. debt. aso. he was a successful manager. now laid off. practical skills not sharp. no CAD background. no other experience besides ID. only jobs available move him cross country or overseas. even low-pay jobs require 4-6 week stints in China several times a year (and i know one who turned down a move b/c his wife is ill on top of everything). can you imagine? perhaps not. your too young.
well try to imagine this person has to put food on the table. try to keep kids in college. pay the bills. WHAT RIGHT does ANYONE have to attack or insult this person for doing what he thinks is necessary to take care of his family?
Defenders of the Profession worry about the big picture. about their precious Worth. about what they SHOULD be getting. what about the people who have been in the profession for years? like these guys. what about them? does anyone actually believe they are wanting to make less money? that they want to undercut? if they could raise rates they would do it! but i know some who are now working sh*t jobs because they cant get ANY work. not bad designers. some are award winners. but they are at disadvantage bc clients believe older designers cant design for younger people. and they dont have CAD skills. and their experience presents conflict with younger managers who wont hire them. add to that fewer design firms and fewer corp jobs but more graduates. its a lousy picture for some. what are they supposed to do? fight for the Profession and walk away from low-paying ID work? even if it keeps their family afloat??
i just wish the people who jump on the Undercutting Complainers bandwagon would use their highly-paid imagination to consider other IDers out there. instead of insulting or attacking, be constructive. venting personal frustrations on this issue is, imo, a sure sign of immaturity.
<apologies for the rant. instead of complaining about things, i’ve been trying to help old friends find work.>
I do not agree with designer, in his focus on the large projects, we all need to take the little projects from time to time.
However;
These are the times we are in. I do not care if you are young or old travel to china, clients offices, and various product release shows are a given. If you are not willing to travel say up to 25% when you are a design manager then you deserve to be working the sh*t paying jobs as you so elegantly put it. It is a global market and global world, travel to supervise the manufacturing, tooling, and to qualify vendors are required and just “plain smart business” of as I like to put it “covering your ass”.
And if my 22 years and 3 months of experience 10 in corporate and 12 years 3 months in a west cost consultancy have shown me one thing it is that any Design manager worth his pay would never go more than 3 months without related work. In my opinion and experience these Design Managers who have worked their way through the trenches of the design industry make for the best front person for client prospecting and sales. After all you need to know the intricacies of design to sell design services, no Harvard MBA could ever make a living selling design. The MBA will always come off as a fraud or poorly prepared door to door salesman.
It is also my opinion, that if they let their skill become outdated then they drove the nails into their own coffin. There is no excuse to let your skills become outdated. You just need to have the motivation, drive, and passion to take the time to learn the software. Hell do it on your own time if you must. Your company has the software, so take some time to atleast learn the basics. Just Plain laziness.
I am sorry to hear about your continue who’s wife was ill, I do understand this situation, and do not fault him for insisting on spending time with his wife. Situation sounds familiar, have a similar acquaintance out in the PA area with same situation currently. Took a model makers position so that he can work only a 10 minute walk/run from the hospital.
To get back on topic, the price seemed fare for the deliverables and intricacy of the project. I am sorry to hear that you had to kill the job. However I agree whole heartedly with the Decision. I would have walked at the exact moment you did, No Pay No Delivery. When you go to a store and purchase a toaster can you tell them “Trust me I will pay you”. NO! They singed his contract and agreed to the 50% upfront. For that size of job <10k this is entirely appropriate. For jobs >10k and involving engineering or creation of engineering ready files, I would suggest 1/3 upfront, and balance upon completion or collect the second 3rd at the completion of a specified middle phase.
Who ever said that their price would include CNC prototypes for that, you must be smoking crack or you have a CNC machine in your basement and you were going to use some low quality 1 to 2 lb yellow foam. The transparent Polycarb. would have cost you around $650 alone, and then paying the machine shop to go through the steps of polishing the part down to the 5000 grit required to remove all the tool marks and make it translucent again.
we agree. i’ve told them as much. forcefully. but doesn’t change their situation now. and no justification for me or anyone to fault them for charging low fees to stay alive. thats the issue. not how they got there. theres already enough blame in this world.
Who ever said that their price would include CNC prototypes for that, you must be smoking crack or you have a CNC machine in your basement and you were going to use some low quality 1 to 2 lb yellow foam. The transparent Polycarb. would have cost you around $650 alone, and then paying the machine shop to go through the steps of polishing the part down to the 5000 grit required to remove all the tool marks and make it translucent again.
that was me. i charge high for design. low for cad (and i’m very fast). and no smoking crack - the files would have been sent out and cut in low density foam for about $600 (prices have really come down last two years, dont blame me). unless i’m mistaken, neither the original poster nor CG were going to hand-carve and polish Polycarb. pretty funny thought - how on earth did you get there?
how on earth did you get there?
22 years and 3 months of experience 10 in corporate and 12 years 3 months in a west cost consultancy
So then say you were offering CNC models. Prototypes infer that they will be represenative of the final form, function and material. Using the word prototype to discribe the foam “form study” models is missleading to the client, as in your situation is mostlikley the engineering manager who thinks of prototypes as items capable of testing and everything just shy of releasing to the public.
I have actually seen design firms loose lawsuits because they said “prototype” instaead of model. One I can vividly remember the firm said prototypes and actually provided the client (electrical engineering firm) with SL housings of a spa controler. Dispite the T&C stating that they were non-funtional and not for release the engineering firm sent them to their client, as test market peices, and the chemicals ate through the RTV seals shorting out the units. Resulted in a 3 year long court battle on who was responsible. Cali judge declared it the ID firm (2 man shop) at fault. His resoning was that the word “prototype” infers that the object is fuctional and useable. The ID firm ended up having a $1.25 million (estimated loss of sales) settlement against them.
To summarize; use terminology that is clear, and unable to be interperated in any other way than you mean it. This is why I pointed this issue out.
wow. can someone point to where i use the word PROTOTYPE? all i found was
mine included CAD and CNC > models> .
thanks.