How 3d programs have influenced product design?

Design Discussions general design discussion
21

Great thread.

I have a couple of observations and a story to share (3rd person).

  1. Poorly designed or under-designed products have always existed, regardless of how the prototypes or technical drawings were created. If you doubt this, go to your local goodwill and look at the housewares that people have donated from the 1970’s. Many are far too heavy, bulky, they don’t fit your hand, or they are just really poorly detailed. When a company doesn’t pay for the time to develop a product, or when they don’t pay for decent designers, they get poor design.

  2. Computers are just a tool like any other. I don’t ever sketch on computer because I can draw so much more quickly. When I arrive at the point that I have a few ideas that I want to create a refined version to be evaluated, I’ll jump to a computer based medium. I’ve rarely seen people that can jump straight to a computer model and develop an aesthetic that is really interesting. Although, I know they exist!

Story: There is a great designer in Montreal that I had the pleasure of talking to. He’s been in the industry for decades. He designed a series of plastic jars for foods in the 1960’s I think. On the top he designed the rim to be parabolic rather than just a radius. He did all the technical drawings and everything and sent it along to the mold maker.

He gets a call to come down to the mold maker’s place shortly after. The mold maker asks him, “how do I make this rim”. He responds that it is a parabolic shape etc. The confused mold maker ushers him out to the shop and shows him his mill for machining.

The mold maker says, “look, I have three wheels here. This one moves side to side, this one back to back, this one up and down. Now how do I turn these wheels to create that shape”.

The designer tells him he will let him know the next day. He goes back to his studio and figures out all the math to tell the mold maker how to make that shape.

Lesson: I don’t know if there is one. Needless to say though, knowledge of math was a very utilized skill in the past, and that mathmatical understanding of shapes is surely lacking today. This same designer also told me that computers hadn’t streamlined his process very much, even with the ability to revise. I don’t have the experience to tell you why though.

22

i don’t think driving your own car is required if you want to race a professional race car. it 'll be totally absurd. even race-driver training.

23

been fun. but now a waste a time.

24

it seems that people in montreal are very mysterious.

25

@ YKH; this is not meant as an ‘attack’ but rather as a point of discussion, so we can come closer to a common truth. (because talking to oneself (you or me) doesn’t get us out of our own heads.

Your opinion is that traditional skills must be mastered. (I am talking only about skecthing 2d on paper here… not problem solving, aesthetics… and all that) before jumping into CAD (non traditional skill… yet)

I was taught in school to sketch everything out… but then also to think in 3D… as in to draw a 3d box… perspective… and by drawing in 3d you get a feel for 3d and you can see if things fit or not.

3D CAD companies STRIVE to make their software as NATURAL as possible.
and it seems to me that you wont be willing to accept students learn right on 3d even when that happens. The advantage to 2d is speed… until someone comes up with a fast 3d way… ( i believe silo3d may just do that)

Basics of sketching for ID: lay out a grid (3d boxes) and round them off… so to speak…
Basics of SILO3d (or other sub-div programs) draw 3d boxes (in 3d) and round them off. … so to speak.

I have seen people who DON:T think! and that’s the main problem. (exagerated analogy->)People come up with neat renderings (2d OR 3d) and say check this out, my perfect design!

THE MEDIUM IS NOT IMPORTANT, what counts is the message, the result.!!

Or at least that’s my outlook on this right now. (i am willing to accept others points of views to adjust my own)


@Mr-914: who are you talking about? can u PM me or post his initials?

26

“before jumping into CAD”. i say this? people can do more than one thing at a time. may have mispoken somewhere. or communicated poorly at one time. but dont see that in this thread. please point out my error.

what i’ve said - “sure you can sketch on computer. both 2D and 3D. but process is different. results are different. thought processes are necessarily affected differently. and that’s the biggest reason for mastering many techniques.”

THE MEDIUM IS NOT IMPORTANT, what counts is the message, the result.!!

maybe not when documenting/communicating final result. but if result is partly a product of the medium, then it too is important. so i disagree medium is unimportant during process. i’m a problem solver first. then i document. i agree medium is less important when communicating (but in real world presentation, sometimes it becomes important i’ve found).

if someone shows a CAD render in ID crit, there’s little room for discussion. show a rough sketch and many people see different things. spurs imagination. discussion opens up. and sometimes broadens potential solutions. just you dont need a group of people for this to happen. this can happen w one person. thats why i diversify. why else would i do experiments in polygon->NURBs->solids? i do more CAD experimenting than anyone i know. support it more. but i dont throw away other techniques. i want more. not less. minute someone discards a technique, they discard a potential way to see problem as only that medium can show it.

several occasions i’ve tried to solve problems and seen this. sketched pen and paper. days go by. nothing. no breakthru idea. then something happens. i might start doodling something seems nothing to do w project. the doodle sparks a new unrelated thought leads to new solution (honestly, who hasnt had this happen?). or i change mediums. drop the bond paper. the pen. pick up newsprint and charcoal. there are no details w charcoal. visual is unique. so is technique. i pour out anything. maybe 15-30 seconds per page. run through pad in an hour. go back and look at the images. i might see something that (again) sparks a new thought. sometimes a mistake does that.

now why would i give up these tools and limit myself to one?

please re-read my comments. and if you find where i’m not being clear, please post it. i can edit/clarify the comment. thanks.

27

What I meant is LEARNING ‘Traditionals’ before learning ‘new’ tequniques.
Just because teachers don’t like teaching that way, doesn’t mean that someone won’t try, or that it won’t be good/better. (or poorer for that matter).


THE MEDIUM IS NOT IMPORTANT, what counts is the message, the result.!!


exactly “IF”, if it is a result.

For me, my ideas are born in my head, I communicate(archive) them on paper, since it is still the fastest for me for now. (until they come out with a device that illustrates minds, not just controls the mouse with it)

Who said that a CAD render is NOT a rough sketch? No one mentionned photorealism… use Penguin, Lino, host of other ‘sketch’ renderers.
Discussion is as much what you present as to how you present it and how open you are to discussion. I’ve tried discussing with a close-minded person
with a very loose sketch, but he saw it, made up his mind… and that was the end of that. till I re-adressed that discussion at a different angle later that day in the corridor. (he didn’t even know it was the same discussion, since this time he didn’t see the sketch, and was a bit more openminded to understand it without pre-judging)

And people see different things… sometimes not exactly what you want them to see, they ASSUME and that CAN lead to a problem. Although your point is COMPLETELY valid, proven on numerous occasions.

That is because you’ve been trained like that.
That all depends on the state of mind and the will to change, adapt, discard your ideas and bend them.
Have you seen some advanced game/character designers using 3D tools?
I have seen some sessions (narrated) where one says something along these lines: “… this doesn’t look very right, lets erase it and change it over to this… ah that’s better…” (dont remember where that was from, he was modeling an alien or something i think)

Obvious advantage to sketching on paper is the ‘ideation wall’ where you pin everything up (your sketches and inspirations). U’d have to print all your ideas from PC if you do them there… which is a big inconvinience.

now why would you give up these tools and limit myself to one? (budget maybe? :wink: ) I never said you should, that’s not the point.

28

@artur - hard to follow your post. prefer keeping things short. in chunks. so one thing at a time. first this

i understood you. but where do i say it is necessary to “LEARNING ‘Traditionals’ before learning ‘new’ tequniques”?

[edit - answered in PM.]

29

second issue:

THE MEDIUM IS NOT IMPORTANT, what counts is the message, the result.!!

maybe not when documenting/communicating final result. but if result is partly a product of the medium.

exactly “IF”, if it is a result.


For me, my ideas are born in my head, I communicate(archive) them on paper, since it is still the fastest for me for now. (until they come out with a device that illustrates minds, not just controls the mouse with it)

i cant say in ALL cases Medium affects Result. thats an absolute. besides, Results can also be Poor.

30

third:

Who said that a CAD render is NOT a rough sketch? No one mentionned photorealism.

not about photorealism. 2D is inherently rougher than 3D. less information. more imagination. i’ve never seen any 3D shape w “search lines”. thats whats missing.

and fourth:

That is because you’ve been trained like that.

i have? by whom?

31

You’ve turned a perfectly good discussion into play fighting.

32

hey panos let’s take a break!

i had a few greek friends in school and one of them was panos. he was always thinking of having sex with hot girls on campus so we called him penos to tease him.

i know that was off topic but what the heck!

33

or instead of commenting on comments you could return the topic to original issue. no objection here.

34

or instead of commenting on comments of comments you could keep stretchin’ it to thinland.

35

Yes ufo, we love sex. I think its the next national sport after soccer (football for Europeans). Can’t blame a man for loving women can you?

Appart from that, Panos derives from the name Panayiotis which means - and excuse the translation my fellow Greeks - all the holyness.

Did you know that the word “Greek” is wrong? The word “Greece” is wrong as well. The country is called “HELLAS” and the citizens are called “Hellines”. The word “Greek” is the equivelant of a US citizen to be called a “Yankee” (I don’t know if I’ve called the spelling wright)

There you go… some general info for a break.

Happy new Year to Everybody !!! Lets start a new thread. This thread has turned into a ufo vs yhk thread.

36

well no, but penos was really something.

i think he kinda ignored that rendition!

yeah i know. they always read newspapers outloud and kept saying hellas this hellas that.

happy new year. as though yhk needed that dose of encouragement from you.

37

ARTUR83 and i have now taken our discussion offline.

38

culprit

39

I am writing an essay similar.

I am looking more to what might 3D packages develop into. Is it possible they can calculate proportion? Beauty and aesthetics? Say, If we typed in a certain series of words if would produce the ‘perfect design’, the ideal outcome, leaving the designer an endangered species?

Or is Human instincts, judgement and experience far more important.


Can you recommend any decent books for background reading.

I am struggling to find a good source for the history of CAD.
Also any websites etc which may help,

cheers

burner