GM: What models can be saved (from a designer's standpoint)

Special Interest Areas transportation
21

The Corvette already kind of floats in its own little sphere. I know I said Pontiac would be American Performance, sort of a red-neck BMW in my mind. The Corvette though is more sports focused than that. I imagine Corvette as being competition for Porsche and Ferrari (eventually). In my mind the consumer looking at Porsche or Corvette is not going to buy a BMW, because they don’t care about having four seats and a trunk. They want a racing pedigree and racing focused car.

Add this to the price point and that’s why I would sell it through Cadillac dealers. Note that I didn’t say I would badge it as a Cadillac, rather just sell it through those dealers. GM would hope that their Caddy dealers are used to a wealthier client and therefore could impress the consumer as much as his visit to the Porsche dealer.

22

no bailout for gm. it’s shares are so low, a conglomerate or rich investor could easily come in and buy them up. this would allow the new owner to kill or sell off under-performing brands.

buick actually sells very well in china.

saturn is a waste, the only vehicle i like is the sky. i like it much more than the solstice.

keep the vette, the cts, the malibu, cobalt.

expand the ecotec 4cyl line of engines. save the v8s for premium models of premiums brands. develop more small diesels.

let gm go bankrupt, find a way to kill the unions.

incorporate the modern turbo technology, variable vanes, anti-lag, gear dependant boost. ditch the supercharger, they are inefficient on small displacement motors.

on the other hand, i grew up in detroit. let the city finally break from the automotive business altogether or let it decay to dust.

23

hear, hear!

I was waiting to see if someone would put that out there. I for one can’t understand the concept of bailing out something that doesn’t work. Why should millions of taxpayers take the burden to support the jobs of few thousands. If you can’t run a business, you go broke. first day of B school.

There is nothing inherent about the US auto industry that I see should be preserved, specially with so much else in need of help. Taxpayer money for infrastructure (schools, fire departments, bridges, etc.) yup, that needs to be paid for and is key in having a sustainable country. Making cars just so you can say you do, not so essential.

I don’t live in the US, have and likely never will drive a domestic car, but just looking at the situation pragmatically from a perspective of basic business.

If my business goes broke, is someone going to bail me out? Not likely. Should the gov bailout Circuit City? DHL?

as a design/branding exercise it’s interesting to discuss the models/brand of GM, but fiscally-wise, i dunno. Not to mention the bufoons on the GM board who would be getting the cash are the same ones who got them into it.

R

PS… and don’t even get me started on unions… !

24

i should look up my sources to share, but i read last week that if gm dies, an estimated 2.5 million jobs lost in the first year. roughly 1% jump in unemployment.

i read earlier this year that the ford family was considering buying up shares to take the company private. as low as their shares are today, it would be easier for them. i think this would be good for them. they wouldn’t have to respond to wallstreet and shareholders . personally, i think ford is in a better position globally.

interesting news i read today, too. ford sold the majority of its shares in mazda. as a fan of mazda products and a competitor in mazda products, i welcome this news.

25

Caddy, Pontiac, Chevy. Keep. Saturn, maybe…

Make most of the cars RWD or rip off the Quattro system (Subaru did). Whilst reinventing them selves learn from the past and make cars that do not fall apart in less then 30k miles.

26

A GM implosion is not good times. No, a bailout is not fair, not exactly a free-market mentality, and a huge red mark for taxpayers, but the reason its on the table is because the alternative is worse.

First of all, job loss reaches well beyond just GM–suppliers, their suppliers, dealerships, mechanics, etc etc etc.

They’re also huge customers for the IT industry, and major players when it comes to developing new materials, batteries, and more. See: What if GM Collapses? - Autoline on Autoblog with John McElroy | Autoblog

And the aforementioned suppliers are all on thin ice as it is–reduced demand due to lowered production has been hurting them for a while now. Getrag (transmission company I believe, supplier for Chrysler) closed down a plant a few days ago. GM tanking would be seriously bad news for dozens of suppliers–incidentally, suppliers that also contract with other automakers. See: Detroit Local News - Michigan News - Breaking News - detroitnews.com

On top of that, if GM files for Chapter 11, that means the gov’t has to absorb huge portions of it’s expenses, right? Pensions, benefits, etc? I’ve heard that would actually wind up costing more than the proposed bailout. Not sure, not my area of expertise.

Anyways, bottom line is that GM going under is not exactly a happy scenario, even if “they deserve it” or its “fair.”

27

Kung fu Jesus: warning, geek content Actually, GM is ahead of you…but only in Europe. The Astra 2.0L has been replaced with a turbo 1.4. It gets 15% better gas milage, same power, 10% less emissions. Ford’s Focus doesn’t have blown engines yet. The Italians are probably furthest ahead, but they always powered their cars with gerbils.

more geek thinking. If the US government really wants to save the big three, here’s some things they can do. National health care. This would remove a huge cost that is hovering over the big three and it would improve the lives of most Americans. The savings over private health insurance might boost the economy too.

Another idea: la régie. Nationalize GM. Renault is a successful car company and is owned by the French government. If they can do, why can’t the US?

Richard: Canada is thinking of guaranteeing some loans for the big three too…so it might be our money too!

28

Doubt they’ll nationalize GM. Sounds too close to communism for Joe Sixpack, it’ll never pass.

29

Socialism is not the answer to GM’s problems, Richard has it right. Bad businesses deserve to fail and the economy is healthier in the long run if they do rather than be propped up by subsidies.

30

Again, normally true, but consider GM an inoperable tumor. You can take it out and damage untold amounts of good tissue, or you can leave it be and try to keep it benign.

…Even tho you can’t “keep” real tumors benign. Not my point…

31

Mr-914,

Bless you for the nationalized healthcare comment. Having lived in Hong Kong for three years I am a complete convert to nationalized healthcare. ignore the “communism” comments. This is all complete propaganda that has been fed to US citizens for so long by the Insurance and Doctors lobbying groups that it is actually believed.

Since I am moving back to the US next year, I am pleading with my fellow Americans to see beyond the BS being spewed about national healthcare. If you believe that it will take decisions away from you, have you read the huge book supplied by your insurance company lately?

Oh yeah, and it will also solve one of GM’s major problems. The costs of supplying healthcare to their retired works is at a point where it will be cheaper to close GM and start a new car company.

Couldn’t help to rant here :slight_smile:

32

Maybe in Hong Kong it’s great, but I don’t like the idea of waiting for a year for surgery - in England it’s gotten to the point where they’re debating the value of healthcare for senior citizens…

I’m a poor student, neither I nor my wife get benefits, yet we’re doing okay. She has private insurance for $108/month. I don’t care how poor someone is, they can afford that, unless they care more about their satellite dish and their truck lease.

And no one’s calling it communism, we’re calling it socialism, because that’s what socialism is, by definition. Socialism is not what made America great, values-based Capitalism is.

33

I prefer to think that a mixed economy and people daring to think different made the US great. Both seem to be in decline however.

34

Wow, I am pleasently surprised how this thread developed into diving deeper into the underlying issues.

Our generation (the 30-40 year olds) will have to come up with a lot of answers and solutions to problems, that the last generations helped to create as a byproduct to running economic models, that have been higly successful, but only in the short run.

In my eyes CAPITALISM in it’s pure form is as much past it’s sell by date as
COMMUNISM was in 1990.

Why is it a bright idea to lie the burden of healthcare on your bosses shoulders? Even fortune 500 Companies can’t take that load during turbulent times or if facing a constantly shrinking market percentage.

(Quod erat demonstrandum.)

It makes much more sense to mediate the healthcare risks by socialising it.
Health care is one fundament of a stable society, as much as the supply of
clean water or energy.

When I was a student I paid about 60 € for student health care, which was subsided for a fixed time by all the others. As of now I am earning reasonably well and I am paying 350 €, but I can afford that. NOW.

If I developed any more serious chronic illness, than my usual allergies I would pray not to live in the USA, or any other third world country. :wink:.

Per Capita spending on health care compared in 2003:




\

As a footnote towards GM:

Let them go bust. I think everybody (- Mister Wagoner) will be better off, if they have to reorganise under Chapter 11.

I agree with many of the posts above, but personally I would rather kill Pontiac than Buick. There are many brands that do pseudo BMW sports limos, but nobody is offering sofas on wheels right now. And Buick is very successful in China.

In stead of Pontiac I would offer the V8 Holden as a Chevy and import ALFA ROMEO to fill the small sports gap.

800×532 9.3 KB

Saturn was a good idea, but GM would be able to kill the catholic church with their sense for “improvement”. Why not rather have two mother marias? (no pun to christians intended.)

well, I’ll better get back to work now.

all the best

yours mo-i

35

Ah yes…the wonderful art of our government privatizing profit and publicizing the risk and losses.

For all of those who can see into the future and think that a bailout is NECESSARY…

Where in the constitution does it say "We the people shall:

Pay for a failing companys lack of profit if and only if that company is large enough to effect 1.8% of the national unemployment average"

Where does it stop? Why should YOU be paying for the poor management of a product portfolio, the abuse of power from the UAW, and Cadillac Escalde Hybrids?

My company laid off several thousand people already. We only need $3 billion to avoid laying off those people. Can we get bailed out too?

More importantly what makes you people think that a company on the downward spiral for the greater part of a decade would suddenly jump back into the #1 manufacturer spot with a little extra cash? Our tax money (which by the way doesn’t even exist, they’re just going to turn the money printers on over night) isn’t going to make GM produce good cars, or restore consumer confidence in GM.

If GM is so worth saving then someone in the private world will come in and offer them up the cash needed to survive. And if not then the now-unemployed auto workers will have to hope Toyota buys out some plants and gives them jobs. The smart people will be able to create light and sucessful businesses where GM failed to do so.

I love the Corvette as much as the next guy, but this is such a bad decision it’s unbelivable. Our constitution is there for a reason, and the right to an overpaid union job is not in the bill of rights.

As far as socialized healthcare…

It’s great when you have a cold and need to go see a doctor for a flu shot.

Just wait till you need a transplant or major surgery. My father was diagnosed with brain cancer and if it weren’t for a very highly specialized doctor (where people from Canada and the UK would fly into NY specifically to see this doctor) he would have been dead inside 30 days. My mothers private healthcare not only paid for his treatment nearly in full, but gave him an extra 6 months.

So think long and hard about whether or not that flu shot is what really matters in health care, when you’ve found out your terminally ill mother has just been put on a 6 month waiting list. If your employer doesn’t provide health care then organizations like IDSA exist to help link you up to get those benefits.

Ask yourselves the question “when was the last time the government did something quick, responsive, and the way I wanted”. Think about 9/11, Hurricane Katrina, and the war in Iraq.

Now tell me that you want THOSE people running your medicine, banks, and car companies.

/rant

36

If you make healthcare mandatory for everybody and have the new
system supervised by the government that does’t neccessarily say,
that health care itself is run by the government.

In Germany we do have hundreds of separate companies that cater
to a healthcare plan, that is layed out by the government.(us the people)
This system is by no means perfect, but at least everybody is covered.
Regardles of his job and his medical history.

If you take a look at Sweden or the Netherlands you’ll discover some
even more capable models.

I just don’t get it, that in a situation f*ed up so totaly some people still
think “we gotta stay course.”

37

joe sixpack doesn’t understand what socialism means, but say ‘communism’ on the radio and the patriotic nationalist bs comes out full force. funny how that works because the uaw is probably the best example of socialism in the us.

i’m more of a darwinist. NONE of the banks or companies should receive any bailout. i’m not going to pay for someone else’s greed and stupidity. i do that enough already.

914: ifollow some of the big 3 models in europe. i have been wishing for some of those to come over here for YEARS. now that gas has dropped amost $2/gal since the summer (TEMPORARILY) i’m sure there will be people still thinking about that big stupid american car to buy.

personally, i think when americans and companies start to hold themselves responsible and accountable for their own actions, we will see real prosperity, innovation, and improvement.

38

Another idea: Offer loan guarantees (which means the government only pays if the companies fail) but on the condition that the UAW buys a certain percentage of stock and gets a seat on the board of directors. I’m a fan of unions, but not the way the operate in a 1800’s mindset. The optimist in me wants to think that when Buzz Hargrove sits next to Rick Wagoner in a meeting and gets to see all of the horrible figures, he will have a different attitude when it comes to negotiating the next contract (or re-negotiating the existing ones).

Ideas philosophically: There has never existed a pure capitalist economy. Although some of the US institutions fail or have serious problems, many others have positively contributed to people’s lives and the economy in general.

  1. The post office. USPS provides very cheap postal rates which have allowed companies to more successfully market products for decades in the form of junk mail. It may not make individuals happy, but it did add something to the economy.

Also, under Clinton the USPS managed to turn a small profit through cost cutting. Sadly, no other president seems capable of appointing a competent person to run the USPS.

  1. Medicare. Old sick people would not have health insurance in the US if not for Medicare. Note also, how the system has been largely privatized in a similar way to health insurance from Germany. The worst things I’ve heard about Medicare is when doctors defraud it. I rarely hear that it is not effective.

  2. Freddie Mac/Fannie Mae. When these were nationalized the first time, they boosted home ownership. I think that was a good thing for the economy and the people.

Note, they failed under private hands.

  1. FDIC. Great company.

  2. PBS/NPR. Opps, those aren’t owned by the government…nm

I’m sure there are many other examples, although we aren’t aware of them. The government employs something like 30% of the American work force. Many of those employees are quietly providing very important services in a timely and efficient manner. The only thing is, because they work well, we don’t hear about them. We only notice the warts. Perhaps it is part of the human condition to spot trouble, or perhaps it is a privately owned media trying to change public opinion. Or again, the rugged, individualistic, anti-organization nature of Americans that seems to have existed from its founding.

I don’t know.

Lastly, if we want to make comments with absolutely no reference to transport, I think we should make a separate thread in off-topic.

Thanks.

39

My college roommate was Swedish and I can definately tell you that Sweden still follows my example of not being perfect or close to it. Many people in need of complex procedures land on waiting lists in countries with socialized healthcare. I’m not saying I don’t believe that the American government needs better regulations on the health care industry, but making everyone pay even MORE taxes to fund a system that offers guarantees of being “universal” but not “Better” is not my idea of a step in the right direction.

Keep in mind theres are millions of Americans who simply choose not to have healthcare. They could afford it, but they would rather save their money and go on risking it. And in America thats your right to choose. Why should I have to pay for the guy who has a heart attack because he eats McDonalds 6 times a week.

America is not Europe. We already have a welfare system that does terribly for the people who need it, and is heavily abused by people who don’t. Adding a layer of healthcare onto that will mean more exploitations of the system on the dime of the middle class Americans who work hard at jobs that do have health coverage.

"i think when americans and companies start to hold themselves responsible and accountable for their own actions, we will see real prosperity, innovation, and improvement.:

Amen. This country was built and founded on the principle that if YOU work hard enough you can have anything you want. America has overwhelmingly become a country of whiners who have found it easier to complain and get their way than to work hard and solve their problems themselves.[/i]

40

While I definitely sympathize with the “why should I pay to bailout a company that ran itself into the ground” argument, that’s not the point. The only reason that a bailout is even on the table is because of the amount of damage that GM/Detroit tanking could cause (I admit the operative term is “could,” not “would.” Reports vary).

The question is whether the consequences of a bailout outweigh those of a bankruptcy or collapse. This is choosing the lesser of two evils, not choosing between right and wrong.