Futility/Why bother?

Other Discussions off topic
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I have always noticed that there are a lot of unhappy people out there. I’m not saying that I’m happy. In fact, I wouldn’t advice you to touch me with an 8ft pole :wink: However, I noticed the increasing trend: A lot of people are chasing jobs or creating services and products to fit in with a certain image. For example, think how many design grads are applying to design positions? The competition may be a thousand designers for one job at a company. Its also the case in areas such as banking, marketing, etc. However, at the other end of the spectrum, I heard stories of 80 year old toolmakers being hired because there is a dangerously critical shortage of them.

I see more and more ideas, branding, styles and products which confuse the mind and sometimes make you wonder what is wrong and what is right. Many people are making up and promoting their own philosophies in an attempt to be recognised and to be apprecitated, some of which may not even make sense. Sometimes you can see that the idea was not created to function as a benefit, but it was created to fill an imaginary “gap” in an imaginary market. On further analysis, the idea was just created to sell a particular person alone. Why bother selling yourself to an organization that may not have any concrete benefit, but your job may be “hot” or “trendy”?

I have nothing against creativity. However, it’s worrying when there are so many individuals who are engaged in it, and are not questioning simple things like whether their work has any benefit at all?

Maybe there is a reason why there may be one designer for every 3000 people of other occupations in some companies. Maybe one idea generator is enough to make work for 3000 non-idea generators. Being creative is good, but so is being analytical, dexterous, patient or whatever. Why are so many students at schools told that they are creative and intelligent when they are not challenged in these qualities to an adequate extent? Why are they given a false idea that creativity is a higher level activity than some other ones? Why are governements massively investing in research and creativity-led knowledge economies in a vain attempt to get out of “recession”? I mean, sometimes students are told that these research and development sectors are keys to economic recovery, and this causes these students to think that this is the only kind of thing that will save them from poverty. This may be the reason for increasing competition and the rise of useless and egotistical ideas.

The question is, why do teachers of schools and media give such a poor grip of reality to young people? Why are things like work ethic and finding out your own talents and using them not emphasized nowadays? Why is the glossy side of everything shown, and not the mundane side of things as well?

The ultimate question that perplexes me, though, why are so many people applying to “hot” jobs when they will be underpaid, oveworked and they may not be as good at it as some guy who does it in his spare time? Maybe there is a reason why a toolmaker’s or a secretary’s shift may be strictly 8 hours long, leaving enough time for enjoying life and creating ideas or whatever in spare time.

Maybe if we could embrace reality, we could get out of current crisis with better work ethic and efficiency, rather than with ideas alone.

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This is a cute bunny, just to provide a little relief after reading that.
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Adorable!

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Why are so many students at schools told that they are creative and intelligent when they are not challenged in these qualities to an adequate extent?

Because they are paid to… … . . higher education is a business, pure and simple.

And I call your bunny benny, and raise you two duckies, and a kitten.

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Thanks for the kittie and the duckies. <3 The bunny had a bit of a flat face, like someone slammed it with a saucepan or something.

However, I still wonder why bother working your @ss off for something that very few people will see and buy (e.g development of hi-end designer toys for money, etc). Maybe it would be better to leave it as a spare time hobby.

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Awww…Lew! You reminded me of two adorable kittens that my neighbor has. I was playing with one in my backyard last night. 15 minutes of bliss.

On topic: You sound like a recent grad. I have some good news though:

The universe is neutral with regards to your success. It’s not going to help you, but it won’t hold you back. This means that people with the drive and ability will eventually succeed and those posers won’t (or won’t for long). So, like a salmon swimming upstream to spawn, just keep kicking your tail, you’ll get there.

Sometimes, those posers that you allude to, get on the Core blog, win a prize or get hired at a fancy consultant. However, they will be burned out in a year and back at university studying something else, or working at their dad’s general contracting business. Sometimes, people get lucky, but without talent, you won’t last long.

The reality:

We (western societies) have over-invested in higher education. I don’t know how it happened. Even worse, sexy professions like design, have attracted far more people than the market ever needed. Like you said, maybe it’s 100 students for every entry level job. As LMO says, this is just the market. Universities know they can get an extra 20-30 students with an ID program, so they start one.

If it makes you feel better, it’s pretty much in every field. It’s even worse in Canada than in the US. Our professional salaries are very low (although, when you factor in cost of health insurance and differences in taxes, cost of living, it’s more competitive). My girlfriend is a notary, in Quebec, that takes a bachelor’s in law, plus two years of post-grad training, internship, etc. It’s the equivalent to a title attorney in the US. Her secretary makes more than her. Quite sad. Although, her office has been one secretary short for over six months. They can’t find anyone that fits.

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hey now, be nice to my benny bunny. Just look at that lower lip! awwww.

To be honest, I don’t know what you want us to say. You’ve expressed in multiple threads your opinion that creative work and design is a worthless waste of time that has no real value, equating it to a hobby that no one should pay for.

It reads to me like you want to get into a discussion about whether or not industrial design should exist as a profession.

You are making sweeping generations about designers, which are way off base. We’re not trendy cake decorators (no offense to cake decorators, who get PAID for their creative work, even though you may consider it a hobby), and I think you have an “outside” perspective. I will concede that design students will sometimes have an over-inflated sense of value to the world, but that’s what happens in the bubble of design school. They quickly learn that they are only a small part of a much larger team.

I’m wondering what are your motivations as this kind of talk seems to be intentional poking of the proverbial hornets’ nest?


However, at the other end of the spectrum, I heard stories of 80 year old toolmakers being hired because there is a dangerously critical shortage of them.

I’ve also heard stories of 80-year old tool makers that do a bang-up job, but they take 3 weeks to get the job done when you need the tool in 3 days. What’s your point? We’re celebrating design and training too many creatives who can really only guide, not drive economic recovery? We need more math and science. We need more engineers. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Pardon me while I go in the corner and bemoan my existence. :cry: :wink:

:exclamation: (edit: to be clear, my tone is sarcastic and playful, I do not intend to sound mad or upset, as I’m not! tee hee )

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The ultimate question that perplexes me, though, why are so many people applying to “hot” jobs when they will be underpaid, overworked and they may not be as good at it as some guy who does it in his spare time? Maybe there is a reason why a toolmaker’s or a secretary’s shift may be strictly 8 hours long, leaving enough time for enjoying life and creating ideas or whatever in spare time.

Ex… . I completed my Bachelors from Purdue’s recently established Industrial Design program in 1973. Very little has changed since then, job-search-wise, or salary-wise (adjusted for inflation of course). Although at that time, “industrial design” was still so unfamiliar to the manufacturing community that, as students, we had to personally contact the human resources department of each company that we wanted to interview with before we were allowed to interview on campus; the university’s “placement” department didn’t even know we existed. This at Purdue University, one of the foremost engineering schools in the United States, where every “engineering student” was automatically interviewed by major corporations when they came through recruiting each spring.

And as Mr914 said, “The universe is neutral with regards to your success. It’s not going to help you, but it won’t hold you back.” Truth be known, most designers are not worth their salt until they get five years of work experience under their belt; it takes that long to understand the full scope of the job. And yes it is a Catch-22; I need experience to land a job, but how do I get experience if I can’t find a job? This quandary is ages old … from the young apprentice stone cutter working on the Bishop’s Cathédrale Notre-Dame de Chartres in 1145, to 2009’s recent ID grads, there are “dues” to be paid in every trade; low(er) pay, long(er) hours, weekends, your birthday, holidays, whatever it takes. But as you gain more experience less dues are paid (unless you decide to operate your own firm and then the “dues” thing starts all over again, and never really ends).

It’s been said on these boards that if you want to become a “designer” to make big money, you’ve probably chosen the wrong profession. And I’ve said before, that industrial design is as much a lifestyle as a profession; which is to say, you have to enter this, and any other, profession with the long haul in mind. I worked “design” related, and unrelated, jobs for several years after graduation before I finally managed to get my foot in a door; my salary was $12,500 a year at a time when the young engineers working beside me were making double that. But no one was holding a gun to my head to take the job, and as in any field of endeavor, you have to stick with it to advance.

And one thing is certain, that eighty year old toolmaker didn’t get to the point in life where his skills are sought out over night. And you might want to ask yourself, why is he still working at eighty? He either desperately needs the income, or he enjoys the hell out of what he does. I’d bet on the latter.

why do teachers of schools and media give such a poor grip of reality to young people? Why are things like work ethic and finding out your own talents and using them not emphasized nowadays? Why is the glossy side of everything shown, and not the mundane side of things as well?

The simplistic answer is that “the media” doesn’t know it’s ass from a flat rock, especially here in the States. And despite all that it would have us believe about it’s 24/7 importance in our lives, the entire broadcast industry is nothing more than an entertainment source … and what’s entertaining about “the real world”. The mundane side of things doesn’t sell Big Macs or beer.

Work ethic, and recognizing our own talents, are both personal interests, and as far as “embracing reality” goes; we all have to recognize a path to take in life and make our own way. With that said, we are allowed to change paths, it’s just a matter of commitment.

Unfortunately, the real world isn’t all kittens and bunnies… .

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Or, perhaps a more positive way of looking at it,

"> So I saw that there is nothing better for a man than to enjoy his work, because that is his lot." > > Ecclesiastes 3:22 >

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applause

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I actually applaud all your replies, they kinda give me encouragement.

I’m not a recent grad, I got two more years of college. I don’t have anything against industrial designers, I greatly appreciate their work. However, I don’t like the way that there are some “poser” consultancies out there, and I’m sometimes told by peers that working for them gives great experience. It just confuses the hell out of me, as to what sort of direction I have to take, or what is acceptable and what is not acceptable in design, in order to become a paid professional.

I’m not saying anything negative about creative work, I have actually realised that the more of it the better, since the bad work will teach how to produce better stuff.

In conclusion, I guess that it will be up to me to decide what is right about design, by being more critical and analysing more.

You have certainly shifted my opinion. I don’t feel as negatively about the whole situation anymore.

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experiMental … the whole trick to personal balance in life is to maintain a questioning attitude. And I’d say that goes double when we are in university.

Just because they’re getting paid to teach you doesn’t mean they know jack all. Remember, you are the one paying their salary, and ultimately it’s up to you to get what you need out of the experience. Don’t be afraid to ask the “stupid” questions (which of course there are none (unless you ask the same question more than once)), and hold them to answering them.

Core77 is a great resource.

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So true. I stated this story a million times, but I was asked to leave my school and put on academic probation for among other things, being too challenging. It ended with a meeting with the dean and the head of the department where I informed them they worked for me and they needed to step up their game.

you are trying to purchase a design education, but schools are in the business of selling semesters. They will try to sell you on fancy facilities and the success of alums, neither of witch you can take with you. I think the simple fact is that design education can not be bought because it is not academic. There is no silver platter to put it on, you just got to go get it. Make it happen. Reach out to professionals, get on here, find peers at your school to compete with, soak up as much art and design history and theory as possible (the best academic design education classes in the end).

The only thing standing in the way is yourself. It gets super difficult at times, but it’s like going through a tunnel, sometimes you get half way through and you can’t see either side. The knowledge of the entrance can tempt you to go back, but you have to remember there is an exit ahead and keep moving forward!

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They will try to sell you on fancy facilities and the success of alums, neither of witch you can take with you. I think the simple fact is that design education can not be bought because it is not academic. … you just got to go get it. Make it happen.

Man, I knew there was a kindred spirit somewhere yo. I had the same experience at Purdue. I had all but quit, and it took my dad’s brow-beating (of me) one weekend to remind me who was paying for what, to get me to go back and make my case. Which, thankfully, I did. Two lessons in one; don’t be afraid to speak your mind (respectfully), and keep your eyes on the goal.