Design and Brasil

Design Discussions general design discussion
1

Hi everybody!

I’m a brazilian [almost] designer and I would like to know from you what’s your general opinion about my country, design, style, etc.

If you don’t know anything about my country, feel free to say so. If you only know that’s in south america and nothing else, that’s ok to tell as well. If you have a bad impression of it, again, be my guest.

I just really want to know what comes to your mind when I say “BRASIL”, either in the design field or for general matters.

I’ll be waiting for your feedback. :laughing:

2

One of my friends (USA American) and his wife was robed in San Palo while on vacation at gun point in 2003. My friend’s wife is Brazilian and was was shot in the head because of a scuffle and she is undergoing rehab. She spoke 7 languages and now barley speaks at all.


Guess I should not say anything at all if it is not nice but I heard about this last week so…

3

Bart,

That’s too bad, man. It is sad that some places get so unhuman. I’ve been to São Paulo a couple of times and it is really dangerous. Specially for those who underestimate the city. Generally as soon as you get in the airport over there you start to worry and have to keep your eyes opened. If you are careful though it is really unlikely that something will happen to you.

The problem is exactly with tourists that are used to safer places back home (like europeans and north-americans) and get distracted easily.

Anyways, I don’t like that city exactly because of that. And to tell you the truth, it is only getting worse.

Lucky for me and everybody , Brasil is much more than only São Paulo, and if you come here you’ll see that there’s another reality outside that place.

4

9 out of 10 attempts to hack my site come from Brazil. Why is that?

5

Well, I really don’t know. What I do know is that brazilians tend to be addicted to internet and computers. You’ve probably heard of orkut (if not, it’s like ‘myspace’ from Google). Last year I read in a magazine that 70% of the users where brazilians.

My only explanation for why your 9 out of 10 hackers are brazilians is that people here when has nothing to do [not my case, :smiley: ] stay on the internet for hours. And since here the government has a problem to maintain the law, it is very common to see cracked programs in companies and school boys trying to be hackers.

6

What about the design? Does anyone knows anything about works or designers from Brasil?

7

A Fellow Chicagoan ID’er is in São Paulo I think. He is not making the money he was making in Chicago of course however he seams very happy. Night life is rather late night so he takes naps in order to hang. I will try to dig up his contact info.

I go to Mexico City often and the problem of attacking Tourists seams to be getting better than worse. City officials make it official to hop a taxi. The clerk takes your name and info then appoints you a taxi. That way the taxi driver is les adept to ‘take you for a ride’ so to speak. Guess the ride is strait to a cash station with a gun in your back. The number in a large city like Mexico City was 5 or so per day kidnappings. Because the government officials care about tourism specific laws are in place like checking out the taxicabs.

Plus I think it’s all in how you walk. A potential attacker may over look one prey and choose a weaker prey.

8

No. I assume there’s very little design in Brazil for the same reason there’s very little in many places: easier to rip off designs than develop them.

I’ve been watching the graffiti subculture and caught this about a graffiti artist turned designer over on MoCo Loco: http://mocoloco.com/archives/002947.php

I just can speak for my own experience here in Venezuela. The biggest obstacle here is the lack of design-art culture, specially for local talent. Producers here take advantage of a bad copyright law application and copy anything they want, it’s easier and cheaper for them to produce already invented stuff so there is no designer-industry marriage.

I’ve read Brazil is very anti-copyright/anti-intellectual property. Does the same situation occur in Brazil?

9

What kind of ignorant comment is that?

As someone who is half Brazilian, I can assure you design is very much present there.

Theft of intellectual property is something that has been cracked down on in Brazil and has not been an issue since the early 90’s when they opened up the Brazilian market to imported goods.

Quick Google searches would point out that major multinational consumer goods companies all have design offices in Brazil. US car manufacturers have local design offices which tweak car designs from the rest of the world specifically for the Brazilian market. Brazil’s leading ad agency W/Brasil consistenly wins inernational awards for their creative work as well.

10

Apparently you can’t read. The word “assume” means that I don’t know. I am saying 1) that “No”, I don’t know anything about Brazilian design in answer to his question and 2) that the reason I don’t know may be because the design industry in Brazil has to deal with the same issues as other countries in South America… like Venezuala (in the link I posted).

Next time, read the words and comprehend them before labeling them ignorant. Being defensive is fine. Being reactionary as a result doesn’t help, especially when I clearly asked what the situation was (see the last line in my comment which apparently you didn’t get to before replying).

11

As I wait for an overseas consultant, thought I’d do a quick google as suggested. I’m not reading what you’re saying.

http://www.wired.com/news/business/0,1367,51135,00.html

“Frustrated by a government that either can’t or won’t address epidemic levels of commercial piracy”

“While piracy is rampant everywhere, it is particularly acute in a country such as Brazil”

I found other sources. Lots. Brazil is one of the most anti-IP countries in the world from what I read. That’s a long way from what you claim.

Quick Google searches would point out that major multinational consumer goods companies all have design offices in Brazil. US car manufacturers have local design offices which tweak car designs from the rest of the world specifically for the Brazilian market.

From Home | Economic and Social Council

“a section of Brazil’s law discriminated against foreign owners of patents. Under the law, designed to help build a national pharmaceutical industry and reduce the price of medicines, Brazil will honour a patent only if the drug is produced locally. Therefore, foreign companies must establish a presence in Brazil in order to enjoy protection.”

Good reason multinationals have offices/factories in Brazil. Way you said it, sounded like because of the great IP protection in Brazil multinationals were flocking there. Personally I agree w some of what Brazil has done, but we should all get the facts straight.

12

Ok. I’m going to clarify all your postos, ‘csven’ and ‘nydesignguy’.

Piracy and Intellectual Property

It is just very hard to keep people off buying pirated products. Here in my city for instance, if you’ve just formated your computer, and you don’t have the latest version of, let’s say, Windows, all you have to do is go to a place called ‘CAMELÓDROMO’ and buy your brand new cd for less than 10% the price of an authentic copy. Maybe if there were any control over the people using the softwares, but there isn’t.

I think that at least half of the computers here are using illegal copies of their softwares. It doesn’t apply for companies though. If you get caught using a software or any unregistered product at your work, the law can be very harsh. So, companies do use registered and legal copies.

But I’ve never heard of anyone that got caught at home because was using an illegal copy of any software. In fact, mp3’s are everywhere, and I’ve never met someone who have bought an mp3 on the web. It’s that simple. Get Limewire/eMule/BitTorrent and download it. For free.

For products in general it’s happening the same thing. Specially for electronics. And in my humble opinion it is just the government fault. The import taxes are just too high. A Macbook 2.0Ghz here costs U$3.000,00. While if I pay someone to bring it to me from Paraguai I can get it for U$1800. It is a big difference. Specially knowing that the product is exactly the same (yeah, they buy it directly from apple). Movies and music cd’s are the same thing. People here in general do not have money to pay for a CD. They prefer to get a copied cd for 1/3 of the price of an original one.

I could stay answering your questions for hours here, giving you examples, but I think you got the idea, right?

No fiscalization, no control, easy access, much more affordable. Shame.

(If you have a question on a specific matter I would be glad to answer, though.)



Brazilian Design

We do have pretty good industrial designers over here. And graphic ones as well. Have you heard of VW Fox? It was 100% designed and developed for brazilians.
http://www.vw.com.br/default.asp?turl=%2Fautomoveis%2Ffox%2FDefault.asp%3F

The Campana brothers (although I particularly don’t like them) are quite famous overseas. Give it a look.
http://www.irmaoscampana.com.br

We have a long way to go, but if you do a little research you’ll find out that we do have good design. We ARE well-known by our creativity. We just don’t get out enough for you guys to see it. Even the government is supporting national design through a website that is trying to create a network and a co-work environment for professionals, students and companies.

Check out the english version …
http://www.designbrasil.org.br/portal/ingles/index.jhtml



Hopefully I could clarify some issues. :wink:

Pardon me for my poor english!

13

poor? your english is better than mine, and i live here!

14

Thank you, betinhow.

I’m wondering if that atmosphere has an impact on you and on industrial design jobs in Brazil the way that it affects the guy in Venezuala I mention. This is my big problem with piracy. It’s music and movies now but is and will more and more be design that suffers I fear. I’d rather hear that ID is prospering in Brazil and other countries, but I hear mostly about companies that just copy designs.

15

Thank you, Junglebrodda. It is really hard for me to know if what I’m writing is correct. So I’m glad you said it was ok! :laughing:

16

I think it doesn’t have that big impact here in Brasil at all. We are not copying consumer products. I read on a website not a long time ago that China was even copying entire cars. I saw a picture of a Mercedez that wasn’t really a Mercedez brand car. With cell phones happens the same. Electronics in general.

The work-force here is just too expensive (compared to China) to start ‘cloning’ products and selling overseas. Brasil is investing on creating good quality products in some fields (furniture, ‘farm-machines’ (how do you call them?), shoes and even clothes). We don’t create piracy, we import it from Asia.

Now, if we start talking about the impact of China in the world, specially for us as designers, that’s another story.

But I believe in design. In making the difference. Not copying.

17

“talking about the impact of China in the world, specially for us as designers, that’s another story”

China has less of an impact on the world than the global retailers like Wal-Mart. Wal-Mart drives things. For example… The word coming down from Wal-Mart now is sustainability. That is the buyer’s new word. Watch China change in 2 years because of the retailers.

18

#1 - Your Wired Magazine article is 4 years old. I also find it hard to see how this demonstrates Brazil is any more of a transgressor than the US when it comes to “intellectual property protection” and digital media. Last time I checked, the RIAA is still actively prosecuting file sharing users. BitTorrent is also still a popular destination for many US citizens looking for movies and shows. Every time aquiantances of mine who are US citizens that travel to China, they do not seem to have a problem purchasing a dozen $1 “pirated” DVDs while they are there.

#2 This whole thread is around design. Brazil has a somewhat mature design infracstructure and is not blatantly knocking off designs (especially in the context of consumer electronics) like China, Taiwan or Korea are. We are not talking about phamaceuticals in this thread. I will actually take Brazil’s side on the phamaceutical issue - that entire industry is overdue for a complete overhaul (much like the US music and movie business) if they want to be relevant in the coming decades.

19

Allow me to quote you: “Theft of intellectual property is something that has been cracked down on in Brazil and has not been an issue since the early 90’s…”

Let’s see now…

2006 - 4years = 2002
2002 > “early 90’s”

Clear enough?

Let me repeat myself: “I found other sources. Lots.”

I chose that one, because it’s the easiest to read and fell easily within your time frame. There are more current sources - one of them being the very person living in Brazil now who started this thread and who is saying that piracy IS an issue. Don’t listen to me, listen to him!

What’s a real shame is that you can’t concede that it was you who were “ignorant” about the state of affairs in Brazil. Next time you might want to actually read what’s being said before you risk looking like this again.

Then you haven’t been reading or paying attention to the news. Perhaps you should read up; actually do what you suggested that I do. I learned alot after you told me to Google some information. Too bad you don’t follow your own advice.

Exactly. In the U.S., the atmosphere is conducive to prosecution of this crime (and I read a report just this weekend that attitudes toward music piracy have, in fact, changed dramatically in the U.S.). However, in countries like Brazil, the government almost promotes piracy. And here you have a person in Brazil saying that people do it with impunity! What more do you want?! Oh, and some of those hack attempts I mentioned… originated from Brazilian government sites. Nice, huh?

First off, I explained why I made the comment and how you overreacted. Second off, if you had simply responded that the situation in Brazil is not like that of Venezuala we wouldn’t be having this conversation. Instead you got hot-headed and stupid. Thirdly, the difference between music, pharmaceuticals, and design is slimmer than you appear to understand. The example I provided of how the piracy mentality affects aspiring designers in Venezuala should make that clear. This isn’t a piecemeal issue. This is about the entire spectrum… mostly because people don’t understand where the boundaries are. However, just because the business models are outdated, doesn’t mean that we have a right to do what we want. If these industries become irrelevant, they can do that simply through normal business practice… not with a bunch of greedy, self-serving people running in to rip their flesh off like a bunch of starving cannibals.

As for the pharmaceuticals, at least you appear to concede that the way you framed the previous comment was flawed in the way I explained; that companies weren’t locating there because of the strong IP protection but because they HAD to.

20

Again, I am talking about design the context of intellectual property in the corporate world - not street vendors on the corner.

I also know my history - Brazil blatantly violated copyright laws in the 80’s when companies like Microdigital knocked off computers like the Sinclairs and Apple II/Macs. Since the Brazilian market was opened to foreign goods by president Collor in the early 90’s, no corporate entity has violated copyright issues in such a blatant manner, especially within the context of Industrial Design.

Let me repeat myself: “I found other sources. Lots.”

I chose that one, because it’s the easiest to read and fell > easily > within your time frame. There are more current sources - one of them being the very person living in Brazil now who started this thread and who is saying that piracy IS an issue. Don’t listen to me, listen to him!

Again, I am not concerned about street vendors - if that is the issue than the US is no better. Just head down to SOHO in NYC and take a look at what people are selling on Chelsea street. Where are the US authorities cracking down on intellectual property piracy there?

What’s a real shame is that you can’t concede that it was you who were “ignorant” about the state of affairs in Brazil. Next time you might want to actually read what’s being said before you risk looking like this again.

I don’t believe everything I read especially if I think about who the information is coming from. I’m sure you didn’t come across an international dispute between Brazil and Canada regarding US aerospace contracts. The Canadian government resorted the legal equivalent of mud slinging because they lost the bid claiming Brazil was en egregeous IP infractor only to be later reprimanded by the WTO.



[quote=“nydesignguy”]
Last time I checked, the RIAA is still actively prosecuting file sharing users. BitTorrent is also still a popular destination for many US citizens looking for movies and shows. Every time aquiantances of mine who are US citizens that travel to China, they do not seem to have a problem purchasing a dozen $1 “pirated” DVDs while they are there.
[/quote]

Exactly. In the U.S., the atmosphere is conducive to prosecution of this crime (and I read a report just this weekend that attitudes toward music piracy have, in fact, changed dramatically in the U.S.). However, in countries like Brazil, the government almost promotes piracy. And here you have a person in Brazil saying that people do it with impunity! What more do you want?! Oh, and some of those hack attempts I mentioned… originated from Brazilian government sites. Nice, huh?

Refer to my earlier comments about street vendors in NYC. I also don’t see YouTube.com making a concentrated effort to ban and/or censor copyrighted material on their site. Last time I checked, YouTube was a US company.

The US is currently at the other extreme protecting intellectual property to the extent of infringing consumer’s rights to what they purchase and how they use it. Ever sit down and read what is in the DMCA (Digital Millenium Copyright Act)?

Healthcare costs also are skyrocketing in the US in part due to absurd drug costs. I’m pretty sure we are cracking down on those Canadian tourist groups which drive across the border with the sole purpose of purchasing drugs at lower costs.

Which extreme would you rather be at? At least the Brazilian government seems to be taking the side of its citizens consistently rather than the side of corporations.

This is the biggest shortcoming of this country - everything is either black or white; right or wrong. Unfortunately the rest of the world operates in shades of grey and will continue to do so for a long time.