Core77 supports Fiverr?

As designer, it is often said by client: “I find someone to pay less than you”. It is very discouraging when students get an ‘internship’ (no pay labor) to perform real design tasks.

When I see Core77, and Coroflot, I believe it is a resource for designers. But then I see the worst advertisement I ever see - it say “I will design your brand logo for Five Dollars”?!?!?!!? WHAT!? I think this is the enemy of designers. Very terrible.

Then I see also the salary survey posted on top of screen. Why is this there? I think also it is the enemy of designers. For certain this results in all designers getting less pay.

I am now seriously doubting that Core77 is good for designers. I think is designed for hiring managers.

I completely 100% disagree with this. Read about what happened when people at Google started sharing there salaries internally (it allowed those who felt they were being under compensated to ask for more and have data points to back up there claims). Knowledge is power. Resources like are invaluable for salary negotiation. Sure salary doesn’t equal total compensation but it is a very good metric to start from.

I agree with Sain.
I think salary transparency (at least internally within a company) is a good thing. There is still a lot of noise about unequal pay between male and female workers and it also might aid to stop companies exploiting new starters and graduates, which (in my personal experience) seems to be rife in the product design industry (I’m in the UK so I can’t comment for salaries around the globe).

People should be paid fairly for the work that they do, not just work endless hours on as cheap as a company can get them.
With no data on salaries such as industry averages or company brackets its incredibly difficult to discuss pay reviews as its your word against a managers.

Maybe I’m more open on the subject because I’m lower down the chain than others, but that’s my opinion based on my experience :slight_smile:

I make 3 times the ‘average’ amount listed by your survey. I think a grocery store manager makes more than the median listed for ‘average industrial designer’.

$50k per year is barely surviving with no vacations. Anything less than $100k per year, and you should give up design and do something else.

I feel truly sorry for the designers making so little money. I’m happy my clients don’t know that designers have so little self-respect.

How does that compare to other firms in your area. Go to look at that. Core77 is only one survey. (also did you go filter down to the state you live in and check your level) Or did you just look at the overall slaary over the entire profession

Anything less than $100k per year, and you should give up design and do something else.

Like we got into industrial design because it was a money maker :laughing:

Also you make blanket statement about all designers, when you yourself identify as one., you should have a bit more self-respect. (or focus your judgements a bit more)

So you think anyone in design should be earning $100k + a year? Seems like a bit of a ridiculous statement to make.
The rest of your comment is a bit confusing and insulting at the same time. You think that because a designer doesn’t earn over $100k a year they should have more self respect and give up?
I would rather have people working (agreed, on a fair wage - nobody disputes that) in a job that they enjoy and are interested and committed to design rather than getting into a profession for the amount of money they can make.
You’ve got to have some passion in what you do!

Failing that, where do you work because I’ll send in a CV :stuck_out_tongue:

Just because it is something designers don’t want to hear doesn’t mean it is any less true. Of course it doesn’t apply to all designers, but I would agree with Sasha that it applies to a significant chunk of designers who charge too little or nothing at all. Our profession holds significant value in the business food chain.

And, if you didn’t get into design for making money, why did you? It can be, and should be a significant money maker if you apply some business sense to your skillset. It is the designer mentality that business and/or money is the problem that drives me batty. The designer/artisan mentality that making money is evil balanced with the Fiverr-mentality that design is a commodity is eroding industrial design’s value from the inside out.

I think the companies that don’t pay designers or pay $5, get the amount of design they pay for. In fact, I’ve been hired by some of them to mop up afterwards for a reasonable salary.

Kinda a stream of thought post.

Exactly why I said a blanket statement isn’t the best way to get that point across. There are plenty of designers who know this and most importantly can provide that value. There’s also plenty of people who can’t. This idea isn’t specific to design. Plenty of professions fall into this trap.

The big problem is that designers in general don’t know how to go about and even sell their services. Or most importantly what to charge If Sasha wants the playing field to be more level and designers to “respect” themselves more then you have to give out salary and specific hours. How are these new designers suppose to know what to charge? with a cryptic spread sheet that you fill out? And when they do know what to charge they need to feel confident asking for it. That confidence to demand your rate is one thing they don’t teach anywhere and one of the most important parts in in the equation of getting paid.

And, if you didn’t get into design for making money, why did you?

I love building and experimenting in the physical world. Getting paid to make products that people fall in love with is fun. Also there’s something fun about creating a commodity product (watch/shoe/bag) That is entirely product/brand based. People choose it because of how it was designed and the lifestyle in conveys. Not the tech is holds. So when you see someone walking down with a product you helped make its a great feeling. I get way more satisfaction when I see someone wear a watch I designed than I do when I see someone have the Roku I designed in their house.

Secondly industrial designs allows me to collect and extremely high set of skills. Model making, CAD, rendering, electronics, photography, video as well as the business side of thing.

If I wanted to make money in design I would have gone into the digital realm and done UI/UX or computer science. And followed my friends who went to the major tech companies (FB, google, apple, microsfot, etc) and make 100+K plus right out of college. But I don’t want to push code/pixels around all day.

It can be, and should be a significant money maker if you apply some business sense to your skillset.

Exactly, this but this is true to everything. I can become a serious money maker if I apply some business sense to reselling things on Amazon that I buy from eBay/Aliexpress. I agree though, designers should learn to harness the business side. Elon Musk wife said it best.

Choose one thing and become a master of it. Choose a second thing and become a master of that. When you become a master of two worlds (say, engineering and business), you can bring them together in a way that will a) introduce hot ideas to each other, so they can have idea sex and make idea babies that no one has seen before and b) create a competitive advantage because you can move between worlds, speak both languages, connect the tribes, mash the elements to spark fresh creative insight until you wake up with the epiphany that changes your life.

Get the design chops, get some business chops and learn that you have a unique advantage because you understand how to talk the talk. Unless you’ve worked as in intern that they were extremely transparent with. When you graduate you’ve probably never even seen a proposal before. Never known how to scope work and set up a rate. How to talk with clients professional about pay and rates.

At your job, have you sat down and talked to the junior designers about this? Did anyone ever do this for you? Unless your junior designer has bought coffee for a freelances and picked their brains on practical advice. I bet the designer that sit next to you right now doesn’t really know this.
I’m sure you weren’t making 6 figures as an industrial designer when you started out.

Great quote.

It sounds like we’re speaking from the same soapbox, just using different words.

My experience so far is that many designers stick their fingers in their ears when it comes to the money/business discussion because of that tendency to land on the side of artisan that believes business is evil. Budgets? Who cares? Money’s evil.

No, it isn’t all designers, but it is enough that it is enough of a problem that I believe it holds our industry back.


If I have to guess about Sain, this person is a young male designer, still in the “meat-grinder” of consultancy work - young and cocky. Probably a good designer.

I’ve been there before. Working for a little money, but mostly making great product, and happy to see my product in magazines. Working for fame.

When you get older and more experienced, you’ll realize that money is separate from your goals. This is NOT about ego. It’s about definition.

The word ‘no’ defines us. If we say ‘yes’ to everything, then we are nothing.

I think Core77 and Coroflot are great resources for designers. Great information regarding portfolios, jobs, companies and salaries and should represent a good starting discussion point.
It would be an insane economy if every designer young, old, good and bad was making over $100K all over the world.
Just because you’re older, experienced, and making decent money now doesn’t give you the right to encourage (future) designers to quit if they don’t get $100K. Specially if you mentioned you were once young, working for little money and making great products. How do you think you got the experience and nice salary?

You are speaking as a devil’s advocate. I am confident you will not accept five U.S. dollars for your designing, unless you are a non-designer.

It seems Americans are taught by their parents to always default as devil’s advocate? Very tiring.

Not a devils advocate, just common sense and logic regarding your self-centered comments:

"$50k per year is barely surviving with no vacations. Anything less than $100k per year, and you should give up design and do something else. I feel truly sorry for the designers making so little money. I’m happy my clients don’t know that designers have so little self-respect.

The surveys show data from thousands of designers all over the world. I think that’s more reliable than one persons data.

Back to your original statement that Core77 supports Fiverr. Core77 doesn’t support it, they just sell advertising space. I had never heard of Fiverr but it makes perfect sense. Some people will want to pay $5-$40 for a logo. This is not new and there are several websites doing this. There’s a market for everything and everyone. The person wanting to pay $5 for a logo will be happy with the logo they get and will not contact individual/established designers or companies charging $75-$250 an hour. Different client.
Also, there are a lot of skilled designers from other countries on Fiverr for which $5 will be a decent amount specially if they are able to do volume. It’s basically outsourcing design.

Complains about low ball clients and non-designers doing cheap and bad design, but then!

Brags about how much money they’re making, almost stopped reading here, but it’s Fun Friday Fisking time, and away we go!

Like manage grocery stores? Is there a site like Core77 for grocery store managers and can I get a link?

So much so that you began a post on Core77 to berate any designer making less than $100k, you good sir are a true advocate for our profession.

So are you admitting that you have little self respect? Regardless, maybe your clients think you have too much of it.

Trump-like posting detected.

Right, this is some heartfelt advice, not condescending at all whatsoever.

And yet…

Strong the force is with this one, errrhmmm.

If only Subway would just cut to the chase and except my non-designed logos as legal tender in exchange for a scrumptious meatball sub this profession would be so much easier.

You know what else is tiring? Reading braggadocios posts by egocentric greedy arseholes proposing to advocate for design when in reality their whole objective was to just be a massive troll.

Playing devil’s advocate here, just because my American parents taught me to, but let’s suppose you don’t post here any more unless you can do it in a professional and constructive manner, did your (whatever country you’re from) parents ever teach you that?

Methinks, no.

I kinda agree with most of what Sasha said in this thread.

Been experiencing and seen this “artist mentality” among designers too much.
This typical idealist-artist culture that opposes itself to money/business/marketing runs rampant in universities.
Takes some time in the real world for the young designer to shake off these false beliefs afterwards.

Offer great value and ask for a corresponding fee in return.
Lawyers and doctors have no shame in doing that with confidence…

If you have a good portfolio, be confident about the value you are offering and dare to ask high rates.
I wonder if anyone knows about a design research that is about how profitable a design was in relation to its investment.
If you have a car designed by Pininfarina or a product designed by well known studios you will pay at least three times the amount than at a small studio let alone a freelancer, but the result will be of a lot more value. Same with logos, your 5$ logo will be a total shot in the dark while a very good logo may cost you many thousands of dollars but be of lasting value. There are always ridiculous cases, like the Accenture logo development which cost 100k.

This thread is kind of a tangled mess of topics…

  • I think the coroflot salary survey is skewed down - probably a lot - by what I assume are a majority of users being recent grads seeking work. Most of the experienced designers I know tend to have salaries above the 90th percentile (I think that’s the $75k line) in the coroflot bell curve, salaries which seem to be barely represented in the coroflot survey, unless no one stays in the field past 5-10 years. Since you can’t parse out the relationship between experience level and salary anyway, the survey data leans toward not useful. seems to have a better data set, especially for higher levels of experience, and seems more reflective of what I have seen in real life. The salary numbers on coroflot’s survey are pretty horrifying if you take them as being representative of experienced designers’ salaries, and probably do result in designers sabotaging their own salaries.

  • I think design schools often do students a disservice by not focusing on business skills - which are arguably more important than the traditional skillset - and too often focusing on idealistic nonprofity/vaporware stuff, judging by student portfolios. Our occupation exists pretty solely because big businesses need people to make their products appear or actually be more valuable than they are, which means higher margins on goods sold and a greater competitive moat, which means there is a ton of value in our work. When I see statements like one of the above posters suggesting they’d do the work for free out of passion for design (might have been on another thread) it’s kind of mind blowing. Really? You’d sit in an office for 8 hours a day sketching, building models, analyzing research, doing in home research, etc for free, so your client can make more money than their competitors, all for no financial gain? Instead of being in nature, being with a spouse or kids, seeing the world, which you can also not be paid for and is probably more rewarding? It’s mind blowing when you hear that kind of madness. Just mind blowing. We are lawyers with drawing skills, and not enough of us act like it. Passion has its place, though, like being passionate about getting a reasonable cut of the proceeds, and being passionate about not delivering a $50k solution for $25k. Designers need to be a lot more mercenary.

  • Fiverr. Do crowdsploitation sites like Fiverr even influence reputable clients’ view of actual design professionals’ billable rates?