Core Article on China

Design Discussions general design discussion
21

This seems like one of the basic downfalls of the global economy.

Sure we could help fix the problem by choosing to only buy american made, but people seem to forget that a huge sector in america has no choice. They have to buy whatever is the cheapest because that’s all they can afford to live on. You can’t tell them to pay more for american made to help the economy in the long run because rent is due next week and the children are hungry right now and have no clothes for school next week.

You have to have those low cost workers for this country’s economy to work the way it does. For the wealthy to be wealthy there has to be a huge gap between them and the rest of the population. That gap is what gives them buying power…if everybody could afford the same, the rich couldn’t be rich. So there always has to be a group that is paid nothing or barely enough to live. It’s been that way for our whole history whether the workers were your own children who worked the farm for free, or slaves who worked for nothing, or illegal immigrants who work below minimum wage under the table …that low end has to exist in some form. Currently it’s the minimum wage earners, that’s supposed to be the lowest end now.
Outsourcing just lets companies drop that low end and push more people into it legally by using labor in other countries. It’s a slight variation of the illegal immigrant model with all the same issues. But instead of it being the crappy manual labor that only affected our lowest class, it’s more skilled jobs that affect the middle. It forces people in the middle to move higher somehow to better paying jobs or drop closer to the lower class.

The biggest problem to me is in the rules the companies are allowed to play by. As long as companies are allowed to outsource to places that have lower costs of living so they can pay less to make more profit than they would using local workers, this trend will never stop. It’s a never ending spiral that feeds off of itself.

I only see 2 ways workers here can compete if the rules don’t change:
1- Provide a service that requires physical proximity like, service industries, street cleaners, police, etc… or…
2- Be able to live off of $15,000/yr like someone overseas which you can’t do if you stay in the US, you’d have to move to one of those places.

With the internet, overnight delivery, instant global communications, etc… only jobs that deal with immediate physical interaction and upkeep of things are safe in their own location. Everything else can be outsourced. People can easily be “virtual commuters” where location doesn’t affect job performance.

Things that designers deal with like local customs and tastes, styles and trends, those aren’t so local anymore. You don’t have to be from a place to be able to design for that consumer because it’s all open now. People have just as much exposure to american culture as we do to ourselves. American designers aren’t safe because they’re designing for american markets. There are japanese kids with dreadlocks listening to hip hop, watching BET and MTV in tokyo that know more about young “urban american” culture and could design for it better than your typical sheltered american design school grad.

Basically, unless the rules change, none of our jobs as designers or mostly anything else non-physical are safe. With advances in communication, jobs can be done pretty much from anywhere. Designing for another part of the world isn’t going to be much different than someone in a cali design office designing a product for a manufacturer in florida. When the guy pumping cad in india can hit ctrl-send and part files are sent to a 3-d printer in a ny office and they have a model in 5 minutes, then the cad guys location is of no consequence to the company. The only difference is to the indian guy, he only has to pay $200/mo rent vs. the local NY cad pumpers $2000/mo shoebox.

Global trade and work means we’re dealing with a global “minimum living wage” standard, not an american one. America may end up just being the land of global headquarters where the only people that live here are the rich business owners, the minimum wage people that perform the servant jobs, and the global military. All of the other countries will be where everybody else lives and works. Looks like this brave new world is moving in that direction.

22

YKH,

You echo my earlier statement exactly: “You cannot COUNT on Americans as a whole to see the big picture and to restrict themselves to buying only American-made products.” Even the ones who realize the implications of American job loss have less and less choice every day to “buy American”.

I don’t blame consumers for buying goods made offshore. We’re all used to buying whatever is on the shelf regardless of where it’s made, and this mentality has never hurt us until just recently. Now we’re seeing a phenomenon which has never occurred before in our history. People are scratching their heads about this so-called “jobless recovery”. It’s no mystery - the jobs have gone offshore.

Just go to FRY’s or K-Mart or Target and start pulling things off the shelves to see where they’re made. I’d say that about 90% of consumer products are now made overseas. I bought a new book the other day for $20 via the internet. When I received it it looked like it should have retailed for twice that, so I looked to see where it was made - well, what do you know - “Printed in China”. This is HUGE.

The decisions coming down from Washington are no err of judgment by well-meaning but incompetent politicians - on the contrary. Our system assures that only the wealthy get elected - and their rich buddies put them there (via campaign contributions). These people couldn’t care less about Americans, or America either. Once you understand that what’s best for the rich is WHOLLY different from what’s best for the rest of us, their resolve to find cheaper sources of labor begins to make sense.

The “little people” who elect these self-serving politicians cheer these impostors on as if they were on the same “American” team with the common folk - the masses just don’t get it. These rich people don’t care about unemployment - THEY HAVE A JOB. They don’t care if they sell out the commoners for their personal benefit - THEY’RE LIVING IN LUXURY. All they care about is what will benefit them personally - to hell with the rest of us, and to hell with America.

The U.S. government is supposed to be protecting our jobs, but Bush has sold them off in exchange for big campaign contributions. He’s screwing the folks who voted him into office, and laughing about how stupid we all are. WAKE UP folks - Bush is a traitor to the American people.

FWIW’s earlier post shows a typical ignorant viewpoint which believes that if it makes financial sense for a company to outsource, then it’s a good move. Good for company profits - ABSOLUTELY. Good for keeping you out of the unemployment line - NO! FWIW doesn’t see the BIG picture. I want people to realize that what’s best for those at the top (those who own and run companies) is not what’s good for the rest of us. You can’t count on companies to do what’s right for America, and you can’t count on consumers to do what’s best for America either.

23

Huxley,

You’re REALLY in tune. Thank you for that insightful post. In trying to identify “safe” jobs to have, a few monthsago the proximity issue seemed to me (logically) like an important factor. You’d think that a job as a barber would be safe, or maybe a cab driver, or someone who washes your dog - but when you’ve got millions of design/engineering/manufacturing people out of work, they have to move on to those other careers, threatening those jobs while causing wages in those fields to drop.

So, then you think “Well, maybe the safest job to have would be one where the hurdles to get in are high, such as becomming a doctor or maybe something which requires exceptional brainpower like a computer programer”. Look what has happened though - most doctors are now imported, and computer programmers are being brought in from India to take what used to be high-paying American jobs.

Offshoring (as well as importing) of jobs hurts average Americans to the benefit of the rich, who are pulling away from the rest of us. What is happening to this once-great country makes me absolutely sick. The rich are in control of the country, and I’m not sure there’s any saving it.

24

Only way I know Huxley isn’t Joe Varga is that one knows when to use “offshoring”.

So what is the solution? Bush or Kerry, do you really believe this will change?

25

And don’t fall for the smokescreen when they say the economy is getting better because more jobs are being created because of it in the longrun. Sure more jobs are being created, more low wage paying jobs performing services to the wealthy. Most people can’t just make a jump up to the next level of higher pay or else they would’ve done it already. So most will end up making a lateral move to an industry that hasn’t been affected yet, or they go downhill. The middle class is where everything is being stripped from. You can’t take much more from the lower class, they don’t have anything. The only thing they have left is their bodies to work with. Our economic model won’t allow more than a certain percent to be wealthy. If they do, more people have to be poorer, it’ll always balance itself.
They say it encourages growth and forces economy and business to change and adapt. Why is that a good thing? I’ve never understood why popular business models equate success with continued growth. Resources are limited, continuous growth has a choking effect on other things like weeds do. Why is a company not doing well because they only had 16% increase in profit one year when they had 20% increase the previous year? They’re still in profit. It seems to be very wasteful and follows the same growth model as cancer and we all know what that does to the body.

Interesting point about even the low wage jobs being put at risk because of more competition from higher educated people having to go for them after being outsourced. Never thought about that part. That’ll push our current lower class even lower. Guess there will be a whole lot of hookers and military recruits being created. Is there any way out of this spiral other than a high body count which is why some have said war is good every once in a while, to thin out the population, put things back in balance (as long as they’re not in danger though)?

Other than getting rid of bodies so that demand for people is up, the only other way I can think of is changing the rules so that you can’t go foreign for any products or services that are already available here.

26

American should learn how to speak Chinese and how to use chopsticks. Let them take jobs in Asia like other people do. Maybe when they live there then they will know how good they have it. It is better to be poor in America than it is to be rich in many countries.

27

Typical dumb-ass remark from an anti-American. A-holes like you really piss me off. Americans DESERVE the rewards of their effort for building a country with a comfortable standard of living. Americans shouldn’t have to learn a new language and move to another country - you *ucking idiot. Americans don’t owe ANYTHING to the Chinese (or to anyone else) especially jobs or a better standard of living. It’s the responsibility of the Chinese government to see to that.

28

On the subject of lost jobs, I’ll tell you what else concerns me. Home depot (for one) has seen fit to lay off a lot of cahiers and replace them with automated checkout systems where you ring up the total yourself and pay with credit card. I don’t care how menial a job is - AMERICANS NEED TO WORK. Sure, a few new (temporary) designer/engineer jobs will be created in developing the machines, but the numbers of people eventually put out of work could be unthinkable.

29

“Americans don’t owe ANYTHING to the Chinese” except $500 BILLION dollars in trade deficit, you mean. Didja hear about dockworker jobs in LA? They just had a big lottery to hire on more workers just to handle all the junk coming into this port. Containers full of Wal*Mart shit can’t get into this country fast enough. Then on the news I see some drunkass blue collar guy getting arrested who can’t even keep his kids clothed and there he’s got a big ass TV to watch ESPN. That tells ya where America’s priorities are, bro. And what else makes the news? Some bimbo who ate 38 lobsters in a contest. Real nice… now go tell that to kids in foster homes where the new mom gets a check and drops yer ass off in Africa. Quit your crying and get a fukin’ job.

30

Do you know know what a trade deficit even is? It means that the Chinese are not buying as much from us as we’re buying from them, moron. And yes, I heard about the job lottery (over 300,000 applicants for about 1,000 temporary jobs) - which underlines just how many people are out of work here.

All that junk you mention coming in for Wal-Mart IS the trade deficit. Why don’t the Chinese do the right thing and reciprocate by buying as much from us as we do from them?

Moreover, if the drunk guy has a big TV, it’s because he EARNED it, fool. I can’t even comment on the rest of your moronic post (new mom? Africa?) - what the hell are you talking about? Stop looking to America for a hand-out. We don’t owe you a GOD-DAMNED THING.

31

You see one clip of a drunk fool who spends more money on his TV than he does on his kids, and you conclude “That tells ya where America’s priorities are”? You’re an absolute IDIOT. And your use of the word “Didja” tells me you’re a punk kid as well. GROW UP.

32

ignorant viewpoint which believes that if it makes financial sense for a company to outsource, then it’s a good move.

That’s capitalism, Joe. If you can’t handle the competition, then you’re going to have to leave. There will be no commies in this great country. What real Americans DESERVE is to have no-talent, unemployed old designers shipped overseas so the rest can earn the rewards they DESERVE. That’s the system that made this country so great and which will keep us strong into the future.

There are those who have been riding on the coat tails of success of real Americans for too long, and now it’s time for them to either shape up or ship out. They DON’T DESERVE to live the good life. Are you one of them?

33

Mr. McCarthey - You’d be well advised to take a few college-level courses in economics (and poli-sci while you’re at it). Suddenly engaging in unrestricted trade with foreign countries where such a radical disparity in cost of living exists (such as the U.S. vs. China) has the potential to be very dangerous for the U.S. We’re seeing the results already with high unemployment. You must have heard that it’s so difficult to find a job now that many have given up looking. It grieves me that you could have such a callous view of your fellow Americans, who would lay down their lives for you. Maybe not everyone is at the same high skill level as you, but we’re all supposed to be on the same “team”.

Also, wanting to impose fair trade agreements to level the playing field with our trading partners doesn’t make Joe a Communist. He sounds like more of a true patriot than you.

34

Corporations own politicians. Corporations compete for profit. There IS no “team”. The only people who believe that are the low- and middle-class because they’re too ignorant to face reality. That reality is that rich people don’t care about America. They only care about themselves. It’s the “have’s” versus the “have nots”. There is no “patriot”. When are you people going to get it through your head that this is what America is and has been for a very long time.

35

If you can’t handle the competition, then you’re going to have to leave.

Fool, When everyone plays by the SAME RULES, you have a competition - otherwise it’s just a bloodbath. Like Huxley said, Americans can’t live on $15,000 per year like those in other countries. Pull your head out of your ass.

36

Is it just me, or did I hear this same conversation when I was six?

37

Hard to say, but you make about as much sense as a six-year-old.

38

hoolly shee ite

amazing how fast a honest to god issue that should be addressed degenerates into a massive bloodbath of dissenting opinions.

funny only one post gives an answer:

Other than getting rid of bodies so that demand for people is up, the only other way I can think of is changing the rules so that you can’t go foreign for any products or services that are already available here.

Are we relying on a governmental institution to take that action? sounds socialistic to me; maybe it would work in the UK… It would work in theroy; after other countries would scream bloody murder about protectionism, closed markets etc. Companies would be forced to reconfigure themselves and pass on the cost of reconfiguration to the customer, jacking the price of goods up, or inflating them. economics 101 says that inflation is the fast lane to recession, or negative growth. With negative growth you have negative income from taxation. without taxation you don’t provide services to the infrastructure and so on down the line.

What we need is a a honest, well thought out and efficent answer the this problem in front of us. there is not one answer.

Taxbreaks for local manufacturing? could work, be in the companies best interest to invest locally, support the local work force, employ locally etc. what the locality would lose in corporate taxes is would gain in local spending and services. call it “onshoring.”

howabout curtailing credit; dont make it as easy to get. Raise the customers awareness that maybe the 72"plasma TV is not in your best interest considering its cost is 20% of the average buyers salary (yes the average buyer of a new plasma TV makes between 36 and 48K a year–its bought on credit and paid off with 40 months by monthly paymentson a credit card)

or raise the customers sights. educate them. Cut through the mediated crap they are fed. Eliminate the term “bottom line”. Look and listen for the customer’s needs. Stop focusing on the wants and focus on the needs. too much of market research confuses a customer’s wants from their true needs. Most just flat out ignore the customer when they tell them what they want because it goes against what the company wants the customer to want. How true is the maxim" if we gave the customer what they truly need, we would put ourselves out of business."

everyone has bottom fed for to long. you can’t just slap on the breaks and change the rules, you need to change course slowly and efficently with intelligence, coersion, education, honesty. cut the crap and fix the damn thing.

it aint gonna be the guys in charge who are going to change things, its those who are in the thick of it on the inside who fully understand the implications of the whole picture. who have seen it from both sides consumer, manufacturer, factory worker and designer, and understand the implications of all the actions, yet have the wearwithall to make the right informed descision. not a reactionary, but a visionary who understands the implications and connectivity of everything economically, socially and personally.

Bah I’m done with this rant. point is if we continue as we going now, we are fucked. but we cant just slam on the breaks and change course, we grew into this we have to grow out of it.

aint no one growing here.

39

I forget that most of the people reading these forums are 12, so I guess I will have to tell the kiddies about the decade I was raised in: the 1980’s. I remember being told by most adults until I was six~eight years old that I should learn Japanese, because they were going to run the business world by 1995. buzzer wrong. Didn’t work out. Unfortunately most people mistake manufacturing for what really runs the world, capital (ie money or the ability to lend). This is why Canada, the ninth largest economy in the world goes to G8 summits, while China, the world’s seventh or eighth gets to stay home. Canada has huge multi-national banks, China has factories that are owned (through lending) by the large multi-national Canadian banks.

What does all that have to do with design? Well, not much really, other than that the Chinese economy could be destabilized on a whim by a few western banks. Don’t believe me? Remember Sahuarto’s fall and the recession of the Asian economy? No? Well, get off your X-Box and go read about it.

As far as design goes, everything has been said through the terrific Core article, as well as the RitaSue Siegel article in the latest Innovation magazine. The fact is, if you are doing very shallow styling, be afraid. If you are adding something of value (research, brand positioning, experience design, difficult mechanical layouts), then make sure your boss knows it!

Lastly, as far as government saving us, don’t count on it. Here in Montreal we have won our THIRD design organization. The government gives tax breaks to employers who hire designers, and there is a program to pay up to a third of young designer’s salaries through one of those design organizations. All of that and design is still seen as what you do after all the necessary product steps are taken (engineering, marketing). Design needs to survive on its’ own.

40

too much verbage.

stopped in to forward this link: http://slate.msn.com/id/2105436/

friend emailed me this. i’ve been preaching this for years. only recently reminded him of it. for the umpteenth time (he gets sick of it i know). CG mentioned related issue in Materials forum.

if your in ID, prepare to be in the same boat with musicians and other artists. not all IDers of course. corporations will still exist; but fewer will sell stuff and more will sell services. but imo the day is coming when the ID-Craftsperson will make a living this way. what was once Engineering is now commonplace. and your skills will be used to benefit your own sales, not company sales. and of course location wont matter as much.

but Starving Artist will also soon include Starving Designer. my take at least.