Changing IP

Downloading a song
Downloading a movie
Copying words
Copying an image
Copying a logo
Recently in the news, copying a store
And most importantly here, copying a design, invention or procedure

These are all things protected by intellectual property laws. Some of these laws are considered harsh, others not. What would you want to change and why?

I used to download movies and music all of the time. I thought about it the way I think about driving 10 over the speed limit on the highway, sure its against the law but who cares. Ive done a complete 180 on this though.
If designers do not respect IP laws why would anyone else?
I think the examples you listed are fairly cut and dry except “words”. I support protection of speeches, essays, books, etc. but not every celebrity catch phrase. In a day where every celebrity copyrights any stupid thing they have said it gets ridiculous.

I think the analogy is wrong. You can download a song, but you don’t own it. You can buy the MP3 but you still do not own the song. IP is the rights for the song, not the song itself.

Crewkid: the biggest difference is while you are not making money by downloading movies and music, someone will be after copying a design.

I don’t think there is anything wrong with downloading a song, although I have not done so in a while thanks to Spotify and Youtube. I think copying words is insanely lame, especially because I know students plagiarize all the time (really? are you that much of a failure that you can’t even reword things?), and because I’ve had copy (that means text/words) stolen from my website/resume before and it cheapens my “voice”/identity on the web.

I don’t really know what you mean by copying an image, but I have no issues with altering photos, etc, as long as you cite the source. Copying a logo is insanely lame (I’ve had that jacked as well).

Copying a store I believe falls under copying a (retail) design, invention, or procedure, and is a shame. However, let’s not be blind and think that it will ever go away. Unless your product is patented through and through, both in tech and design, it will be jacked. It’s up to us as designers to keep thinking ahead: if no one steals, we’ll get lazy and stagnate, yeah?

Downloading a song under a minimal payment model, fine. Sampling beat or riffs, fair use.
Downloading a movie If I have a choice to see a big movie in a theater, I’ll choose that option. Hangover 2, cannot even be bothered to download it.
Copying words Part of the advancement of civilization. With quotation marks and attribution, absolutely no payment.
Copying an image You know where I stand on this from the last thread.
Copying a logo Pointless, it is someone else’s identity.
Recently in the news, copying a store A minimally decorated store that sells authentic merchandise with service and guarantee, no issue.
And most importantly here, copying a design, invention or procedure

I have had several products copied one to one. A complete snowboard line of all boards and boots and bindings was reproduced 1:1 by a North American distributor surreptitiously . They f*cked it up and it failed. They went out of business and two years later the brand was buying my designs again out of another factory.

Each additional time a product of mine has been copied 1:1 it has been inferior and failed. It is irritating at the time and satisfying after the end result is determined. They can never make the next step, I take the product and evolve it further. It is a dead end game for the copier.

Some concepts are taken and improved on, that is flattering. I take concepts and improve on them. Products are an evolution. If we all get caught up in A, protecting every little piece like a growling dog, we end up with nothing, and B, if we feel the need to invent of design something completely devoid of any external or prior influence we will find ourselves also with nothing.

The biggest wastes of time in my life are the times spent in court or arbitration talking about who owns what IP. In those cases, the only ones that made any money were the lawyers.

Similarly, when I was at Evo we designed a carabiner timepiece for a global timepiece brand that ended up winning an IDSA award. Within 12 months there were knockoffs everywhere from the overall idea, to an almost line for line copy at a major big box retailer… Who also sold the authentic one! Funny enough, I was talking to a designer at a major global brand who also makes timepieces a year or so later and he said to me “funny, you did that, we are knocking that off…”

I know IP is a very serious matter, and I’m not making light of it, but my point is that this is something that has been evolving for decades, perhaps centuries, and I’m happy to focus my limited time on design not law. IP by definition deals with what has already been done, I like to think more about what hasn’t been done yet. Hartmut was in the studio recently and was talking with a group of us, he said “ask me anything you want, but not about the past, the past is boring, read a book if you want to know about that. Ask me about the future.”

A character in a forgettable movie with a memorable quote. As he rips the rear view mirror out of a supercar, “what’s behind me does not matter, what is in front of me, I pass.”

Nice line! I’ll remember that one!

Frank Lloyd Wright actually had the back window taken out of his Lincoln to improve the slope of the roofline to his eye. When asked why he said “I never look back”. That is swagger.

Sorry to correct you, but it is one of my favorite movies, The Gumball Rally. BTW, much better than any of the Cannonball Run movies.

Franco, the Italian race driver played by Raul Julia, rips off the rear view mirror of a Ferrari Daytona Spyder, thows it out of the car and says, “And now my friend, the first-a rule of Italian driving. What’s-a behind me is not important.”

Ok, back OT.

If you missed it, mrtwills posted some timely stuff in When Patents Attack, as seen here, When Patents Attack - #7 by iab It is a great listen and well worth your time.

I would agree with what was reported in that podcast, the patent system has run amok. The outrageous costs to defend or attack IP has simply destroyed the intent of IP. If you come up with something unique, you have the right to prosper from your creativity. Does this give an unfair advantage to creatives? Maybe. But without that advantage, there is little incentive to create new things and personally, I don’t ever want to learn to use a buggy whip.

The biggest change I would like to see is that cost lowered. I don’t how that can be accomplished, but it shouldn’t cost millions to protect your property. I can’t believe a simplier system isn’t possible. (pardon my double-negative)

What was most surprising to me was nxakt’s comment about how it is pointless to copy a logo because it is someone else’s identity. That seems to me one of the biggest violations of IP. Fake Rolex watches, fake Coach handbags, fake Nike shoes, etc. All using the fake logos to sell the product. Take the logo off the watch, it is much less likely to sell.

But with that, there is a bigger topic. Why is OK to copy some forms of IP and not others? Someone may be willing to pay to copy that song but may not be willing to pay to read a New York times article (they recently switched to paid content).

I think we should see what ip actually has to say and not try to change the things that he does wirelessly.

I stand corrected, it was that movie I was thinking of, wondered if anyone would get the reference. Maybe the quote was from another movie, or I evolved and redesigned it. :wink:

I answered the original topic list as first person action. Would I copy a logo, a product? No, that is my definition of a pointless action.

I have seen great solutions in other products that I have incorporated into my own products. I have done the research in those cases to make sure that the concepts were not protected or existed prior, and evolved the ideas to honor “what’s in front of me I pass”.

The IP you mentioned, Rolex, Nike, Coach is all protected by corporations, none of which to my knowledge are under the slightest threat of failure due to copy loss.

Brand identity is something the consumer needs to feel. ( See other posts on the analogy to religion. ) The shoe, the bag, and the watch are all just objects until the logo gets added. The fakers add these logos because there is a demand of brand belonging by those unable to afford the authentic item’s cost. 1999-2004 the Swiss watch industry bitched and moaned about copy watches in China. Then China became a huge market for the authentic items, and the Swiss realized that each replica had been an advertisement and an aspiration not a dilution, they raked in the profits with glee.

There is no honor in creating or selling copies of others work or brand identity. The masses need their sense of belonging to a higher economic bracket. The logo is the tool, the grafting, homage, appropriation is the process it arrives without the cost. If the difference between the cost of production and the cost to acquire has a significance greater than x, then the potential for secondary channels is opened.

If it is for the purpose of art or cultural comment, IMHO it is a very important right to use all culturally available symbols. To support a creative endeavor where the end products is evolved or entirely different, no limitations.

On a related tip to honor, or tribal indicators if you will. When I was a ki I switched from Catholic school to public school in 6th grade. I wad been wearing Catholic school uniforms for 6 years and had no idea how to dress, I had no concept that I could actually select my own clothes and how that could be fun, but also how it would impact how I was perceived. When I got to school I noticed some obviously cool kids wearing red and white sneakers with a black logo and black wings on the side. I thought they were awesome! Amazingly loud and full of personality, I’d never been exposed to anything like it in Catholic school!

So of course I begged my mom for them. She relented and I got what I thought where the same shoes. But when I got to school the cool kids didn’t seem to notice! What was wrong? On closer inspection, I realized their shoes said “Nike” and “Air Jordan” with a curvy swoosh… Mine said “Pony” and “City Wings” with an angular check… I had bought knock offs! The tribe did notice and they rejected my decision.

Thought I would note, it technically was patented:

Then was later referenced in many other patents, of course the idea of combining a carabiner with another product is pretty open, but these are the ones that also aesthetically looked similar… it could have looked like anything.

On multiple occasions in China my company has come across manufacturers knocking off our products and then decided to re-source with those manufactures.