Ask me anything re: U.S.-China design work

Great questions, as always.

The truth behind “low-trust”
I think I need to preface my answers with this: while I have been speaking in broad generalizations, I have been quite careful with my selection of words (I’m presuming most readers are westerners here), because the same words can have vastly different connotations from culture to culture. When westerners describe China as a “low-trust” society, it’s VERY IMPORTANT to note what this designation really indicates and to NOT accept it purely at face value.

First, “low-trust” here should not be seen as a diagnosis but rather a symptom of the complexity of the modern Chinese society. Recall that, broadly speaking, the Chinese perceive all things—people, things, events, relationships—as interconnected, kind of like a spider’s web that extends indefinitely in all directions AND changes constantly. It is imperative then that, as an individual, you know how to navigate this “web” if you want to be successful. Given China’s history of massive natural disasters, agricultural (i.e. ordinary farmers) origin, and long-running imperialistic rule (i.e. emperors/dynasties and their constant wars), it’s not hard to imagine that, on this web, the people you can trust are the ones with whom you have the most enduring, most consistent, and most reliable connection—that is, your parents/guardians, grandparents, siblings, or other direct relatives. It’s my personal belief that this concept of a social web feeds off of—and at the same time feeds into—the Chinese tradition of perceiving “family” as the basic social unit. Consequently, if you are not a member of someone’s family—you’re, by default, not within that person’s “inner circle of trust”. On the other hand, western societies are built around the individual as the basic social unit, so we are free (and empowered, even) to extend our personal trust to anyone we feel is worthy of it. By extension, it is also why westerners generally have a stronger conviction in the ideas of self-fulfillment, self-expression, personal freedom, personal property, loving and marrying someone at your own choosing, etc. In China, those ideas are much more abstract and open-ended, for better and for worse.

Second, the general “low-trust” atmosphere is also enhanced by China’s successive crises in the past century: imperial overthrow, Japanese invasion (not excluding centuries of western rule by invading forces—a big sore point for the Chinese), nationalist/communist civil war, cultural revolution / Great Leap Forward, Deng Xiao Ping’s opening of the economy and subsequently massive wealth expansion, SARS, 2008 Olympics, 2008 Sichuan earthquake, ongoing Pacific Ocean territory disputes, recent anti-graft crackdowns, pollution, food safety scares, and so on and so forth. In short, there has been a HUGE amount of social, political, civil, and other kinds of upheavals that seems to constantly attack the already very fragile social “web”. To say China is simply “low-trust” is implying “less trusting than western societies”, but that’s missing the point—which is that China has gone through more “big events” in one century (and, sadly, lost more lives) than many, many western countries have gone through, even if you put them all together. What most westerners don’t appreciate is that it’s not completely fair to put an entire country that still has more people in poverty than there are people in the UNITED STATES on the same value scale, whether you’re talking about democracy, social equality, or, in the case of designers, the idea of intellectual property protection. So westerners (especially our politicians who love having vote-attracting talking points) find it easy and addictive to point fingers at a country that’s already deeply self-aware, defensive, and ready to “prove itself”. It’s like asking a victim of bullying who’s been hitting the gym not to harbor any ill will towards the bullies. That’s not a healthy thing, for the west or for China (see China’s artificial, military-oriented islands in the Pacific). It’d be better if we open up dialog and help developing countries come around to understand the importance of those issues, but also check our sense of superiority at the door.

Finally: all that being said, there is UNDOUBTEDLY a wide-spread trend of make-money-now-worry-about-consequences-later. Shoddy construction of products and buildings (e.g. schools in Sichuan during the 2008 earthquake), entrenched corruption from the most national to the most local levels, and food safety problems—they all reflect a people that’s partly exasperated with an unreliable government (and legal system) and partly worried about their immediate loved ones (and thus unworried about others). The mysterious disappearances of activists, cover-ups of large-scale disasters, and constant political distractions/attacks on Japan and the U.S. feed into the unspoken understanding that “I can’t trust my government, but if I had to choose between that and outsiders, I’d rather side with my own, because no outsiders care about China.” Which, sadly, has been a self-fulfilling prophecy for years, if not centuries.

OK, enough about that, onto the questions…

1) See how this attitude affects developing new products, being that in the west we usually prefer to market products as “lasting” (although far from always the case, but I digress)
A: As I mentioned before, the Chinese already don’t believe anything to last forever, the only exception being the familial relationships (even that is slowly eroding away). The prominence and emotional value that westerners tend to place on physical objects are something that we’ve accumulated over the formation of our societies—again, our ability to “individualize”, or piecemeal, our environment rather than define them in terms of relationships to other objects in the same environment. For example, I can easily reminisce about “my first car”, “my first drawing desk”, “my first pencil case”, “my first BMX bike”, “my first computer”, etc. The Chinese are more likely to reminisce about “the village I came from”, “the road I used to take to my elementary school”, “where I drank coffee before my first job interview”. As a result, designed objects are not perceived by the Chinese in the same “lasting” framework as by westerners. The issues of reliability, high-grade materials, safety, and other performance or value-based metrics follow suit. In cities where imported goods and brands are more developed, you will begin see an increase in people’s ability and tendency to impart value onto objects, but it won’t be as “sophisticated” as the west. (By the way, I use “sophisticated” loosely, as there are obvious criticisms about how the west put so much value in objects/brands.) The one exception to this rule of thumb is MONEY, more specifically CASH (better yet, American dollar), which is a universal constant that the general public is more willing to faith in than any “designed object”.

2) See any change to this attitude in your company, being American-driven
A: If you’re talking the idea of making “lasting” products, I will say that there is a subtle, but noticeable, conflict of interest between the different functional teams. Almost all large companies have this, but it’s exponentially more evident in their China operations. On the one hand, brand and design folks will emphasize the importance of building long-term “brand value” and consistent “design strategies” (this is true). On the other hand, due to rapidly changing market trends and even faster-changing consumer tastes, our marketing and sales staff are more concerned with developing just-on-time (kind of like Toyota’s system) communications and promotional materials such as TV commercials and online ads (this is also true). For many other multinationals, the rapid public adoption of e-commerce has been an immense challenge; large companies have broadly been caught with their pants down and are not at all structured in a way that allows the flexibility that China consumers want; in the west, large companies are built to have “fuses”—a pseudo-democratic management structure that prevents a long ranger from wreaking havoc. New brands are, therefore, sweeping in and taking big chunks out of their market shares. Imagine the general public adopting the likes of Amazon, eBay, Paypal, Facebook, and Uber in only a few months, and new players are entering the market all the time, where there were no such things before. Case in point: the local taxi companies have all already rolled out Uber-like apps and network of drivers. In turn, there many cab drivers who are drivers for ALL of these services, having 3 to 4 cellphones on their dashboards running simultaneously. This, in turn, is forcing marketing/sales to be VERY reactive—which makes the brands look even more behind the times. But they HAVE to; there’s nothing that can be done unless you do a ground-up restructure of your organization. Basically, the global teams often move too slowly and the local teams often move too quickly. (By the way, new Korean skin care, cosmetic, and fashion brands are very, very good at this, but their market is also hyper-competitive. What they’ve resorted to doing is launching and killing sub-brands every few months to keep things fresh. Amazing and scary.)

3) See any changes to this attitude in general, due to everchanging social and political climate, younger generation etc…
A: In the U.S., we tend to place a lot of value in “heritage”; brands out of fashion can often claw their way back—if they improve their products—by leveraging a long company history. Recent examples are Timberland, Jaguar, and Gap. The “good ol’ days” still spark compelling nostalgia, such as “Made in the USA” and handmade goods, the retro-styled electronics, music on vinyl, etc. In China, the idea of heritage is too tainted by a negative history and one that was almost destroyed by the Great Leap Forward, so the young generation is more motivated to find new things, explore new places (hence the exploding popularity of traveling overseas), and, in general, discover things that no one else has. The phenomenon of tens of thousands of ordinary people becoming trend setters and opinion leaders online with several millions of followers reflects this (the Kardashians pale in comparison). As a result, you’ll see many splintering trends in the new generation, which makes branding and marketing to them even harder than before. The new generation will be very unpredictable and armed with discerning tastes acquired from all around the world. They will be brand conscious to stay leading edge, but not brand loyal to avoid being a follower. They’ll want genuine surprises, not just localized versions of the same things. Luxury brands that had record-setting sales last year but shutting down brick-and-mortar sales this year are evidence of this. Unfortunately, most foreign brands don’t or refuse to recognize this—at their own peril.

Do you socialize with Chinese people above and below yourself in the company hierarchy, outside of work?
A: As a strictly personal rule of thumb, I don’t normally socialize with colleagues outside of work. This keeps myself in check and it helps me maintain that critical level of professionalism. In China, my demeanor is easy-going, but the downside is that it can easily give people the impression of having built an overly good “guanxi” with me. I think, perhaps conservatively, that this overestimation can mislead some people to think that I’ll turn a blind eye to them cutting corners. Indeed, I have observed that some people will use our guanxi to become pushy on deliverables, set unrealistic goals, or worse, start to “manage” me as if I were a vendor. It’s not out of any ill intention; it’s just a natural “flow” when you have good guanxi in China. But of course, in my position, I cannot allow that to happen, so I strive to keep all colleagues at the same level of expectations and social interactions. However, in the office, I still extend the common courtesy of having casual conversations about their work, family, etc. before any formal talk. This is still important. It’s worked out for me quite well so far.

Great responses, very educational! Just started the book, seems very interesting. My next trip to China is scheduled for September, will be interesting to apply some of this knowledge.

I wish someone else would post questions too, perhaps I pulled this in a bit too philosophical/social direction which scared some people off? Let’s try some industry-specific questions.

  1. What is the CAD-software of choice over there? Rhino-to-SolidWorks? Alias-to-ProeE? ICEM-to-Catia?
  2. How are the skills of new graduates? Are they CADjockeys, Sketchmonkeys, neither, or both?
  3. How well do Chinese graduates adapt new tools?
  4. What’s the view on pirated software in PROFESSIONAL setting?
  5. How do design students see themselves and viewd by others - trendy and cool, or “didn’t-get-in-into-engineering/MBA-failures” ?

Glad you’re finding the book to be interesting! It opened MY eyes, at least.

1) What is the CAD-software of choice over there? Rhino-to-SolidWorks? Alias-to-ProeE? ICEM-to-Catia?
A: I don’t have any data on this, but anecdotally I have seen Rhino and Solidworks used more often. That being said, I have been surprised by how many software suites some of the Chinese designers are using on a regular basis. There are many designers who seem to be “software agnostic”; that is, they’ll use Rhino, Solidworks, ProE, Alias, Sketchup, even Maya—interchangeably. A bunch of graphic designers I know use Rhino and 3D renderers plus extensive post in Photoshop quite often to do special effects—on top of the regular graphic work that they do. It’s kind of crazy.

2) How are the skills of new graduates? Are they CADjockeys, Sketchmonkeys, neither, or both?
A: This is a complex question—just as it’s hard to categorize designers in the U.S. or elsewhere. There are undoubtedly good designers out there, but, as I’ve mentioned in an earlier post, design became a “thing”—like the New Best Job—over the past decade or so, and now tens of thousands of colleges and post-secondary schools teach “design”. Without getting too much into how design is actually taught in a majority of schools, the bottom line is that the general skill of new graduates is lacking, if only by virtue of so many of them graduating from schools that don’t teach design well. The severe dearth of clients that are knowledgeable about design doesn’t help, neither does the fact that most schools require government-issued teaching licenses to teach, so it’s rare that practicing professionals actually go and teach a new generation of students.

I think a consistent trait of young designers at good agencies is having technical proficiency. By that I mean having very efficient command of various software. The biggest gap, I find, is the ability to problem-solve independently by working out the issues and opportunities. From an aesthetic perspective, I find most designers are weak in having a strong perspective and they tend to lean too much on bit-by-bit answers rather than creating holistic solutions (i.e. being overly focused on a single icon’s design rather than creating a cohesive visual language or communication hierarchy). Or they swing to the other extreme: a complete belief in a particular style and then not be able to develop concepts according to the needs of the brief.

3) How well do Chinese graduates adapt new tools?
A: They learn technical things much more quickly than things that involve critical thinking. If it’s using a machine or, again, software, it doesn’t take them long to get the hang of them. Part of this is because Chinese education is still broadly based in rote learning and repetition. Learning new technical skills is not the issue, it’s the “soft” skills that are lacking.

4) What’s the view on pirated software in PROFESSIONAL setting?
A: I don’t know any agencies that are NOT using pirated software on at least a significant percentage of their workstations. Even “licensed software vendors” are usually just selling pirated software. Large agencies will have more official licenses, perhaps, but local agencies will likely be using all pirated software. In-house it’s a different story; multinationals such as my employer have internal policies that require software to be purchased and installed by reputable vendors. If it’s any indication, I have yet to see a single DVD store that sells official DVDs in China; there is simply no market for software that costs thousands of dollars per seat, when you can have an illegal copy (or a homegrown alternative) for $5 or free. Some small agencies are taking jobs for as low as $100USD for 1- to 2-month projects; paying for official copies will mean not being able to hire the people you need. Just doesn’t make business sense.

5) How do design students see themselves and viewd by others - trendy and cool, or “didn’t-get-in-into-engineering/MBA-failures” ?
A: Design as a profession is very trendy but also massively misunderstood. However, given the quality of most designers, the misunderstanding is…understandable. Aside from lack of quality design education, there’s also a growing perception of design being so “cool” that it also attracts a large number of students who—I hate to be blunt—see it as an easy, popular career path, not unlike being a glorified trend leader.

ADDENDUM
Title-skill discrepancies

As an additional insight to your questions, there’s a big challenge in determining the actual skill and experience of a designer in China. Backed by wealthy parents, many graduates can get a degree, land a comfortable “design” job at a big company, or even start their own practice right out of school—as long as they have the right “guanxi”, or connections. As a design manager, a big part of my job when preparing for a new project is to validate the actual skills of the designers at the agency we engage; oftentimes, even “senior” designers are not proficient enough for the project, so I will ask the agencies to provide a new designer. When that’s not possible, I have to step in and literally give them a crash course on design. In short, titles often misrepresent the designers’ actual skill levels.

Retaining design talent and its hidden problems
Another reason for this skill misrepresentation is that there is a high turnover of personnel at almost every single company. Designers, being so popular and often LITERALLY seen as a quick “value-add” to any team, are constantly offered higher pay by super-competitive employers. If, say, a junior designer has worked at a large international company for 6 months, there will be small local agencies that are willing to hire him at a higher salary and make him a senior designer. Why? Because then the small agency can then tell its clients, “We have designers from _____ company (the hint: and therefore we do good work at a low price).” So if you hire a local agency hoping to save costs, you might be getting a terrible bargain.

What agencies are hesitant to share
The flip side to this is that larger creative agencies in China are feeling tremendous downward and upward pressures: downward by clients who don’t know any better but who also want lower prices—closer to those set by small agencies (many of whom will spend months on a pitch for FREE just to land a big name); and also upward pressures from headquarters (based in the west) to make revenue goals, which aren’t at all realistic to the market. What often happens, then, is that the best designers are overworked and forced to leave for their own sanity, good designers also jump ship for higher-paying positions, and mediocre designers are promoted by the company who can’t afford the massive brain drain. So if you hire a large, international agency hoping to get the best talent around, that’s also not necessarily the case. This is often true for not only designers, but also for client managers, strategists, production artists, illustrators, etc.

Do your homework: meet the creative team
The main takeaway is this: if you’re in the position of a client and you want to hire an agency—large, medium, or small—to do work for you in China, you have to look at more than the flashy website, the work being shown (which, for international agencies, are usually the work of the foreign branches, not the local China branch), and the particular methodology/style/approach of the agency. You have to literally request to meet the individuals who will be working on your project or have them be personally present in the meetings; build a personal relationship with each of them; and keep an eye on any internal changes in personnel as the project goes on. If your project is dependent on a particular designer (which is likely to be the case, because agencies tend to assign the biggest projects to the best designers, just to be safe), make sure that he is on this project from the beginning to the end. An agency will be very reluctant to let you know if he left the company, because the discrepancy in skill between him and his replacement may very well be HUGE. I’ve seen the quality in work drop significantly because of one designer, one manager, or one illustrator. Consistency is not a guaranteed deliverable for any agency, despite what they (admittedly HAVE TO) say.

Sorry, MisterMr, for missing your kind words…my answers are taking up too much screen area on my laptop that I’m just scrolling through quickly. I’m happy to do this.

There was a good podcast on why Japanese homes are disposable: Freakonomics - The hidden side of everything

I don’t know if it’s the same in China, but my colleagues in China seemed to think old houses were bad.

I’m going off track a little bit with the following question, but it might give us some more insight in the Chinese way of looking at things.

There has been some news of a Chinese kids movie, which looks very heavily inspired by Disney’s Cars.

To the western world, this is a case of plagiarism. Yet the Chinese creative director solemnly swear it is no such things, just ‘inspired by’. Which makes me think the definition of plagiarism might be quite different for parties. Could you share your thoughts on this?

Additionally, if the definition of both parties is truly different, how do you see this developing? Will the western world adjust more, or will the eastern side adjust more?

Sorry for the slow response…didn’t get the usual email notification of a response to the thread.

I can’t say for certain whether the motivation is the same in China as it is in Japan, but the symptoms are similar, namely:

Urban Chinese are, in general, not as attached to historical buildings as we in the west may be to our historical buildings.
For example, many people in the west criticize the bulldozing of historical Chinese residential buildings called hutongs, which are found in cities like Beijing and Shanghai. From a purely functional perspective, most Chinese—unless they live in it—are neutral to their demolition, because much of the buildings have been rotted out and are often unsafe and unclean for habitation. Only with large financial investment could they be preserved, but there’s more money to be made in building new skyscrapers. In short, where the west may place great value in the buildings’ history, the Chinese will likely place more weight in its practical (and by extension financial) value. The injustice, in my personal view, is not in the destruction of the buildings but in the forced removal of its residents, who are often compensated very little for giving up prime real estate, but that’s another topic altogether.

The Chinese really like to personalize
I can’t say if personalization is born out of culture or simply a modern trend, but almost every new homeowner will renovate his/her new apartment COMPLETELY. I live in an apartment building; every time someone moves in, there will certainly be a few months’ of construction. I’ve asked my Chinese colleagues about this; apparently this is standard practice in China, and they attribute this to the Chinese liking to start things from scratch—make it their own, so to speak. I don’t know if this is related, but over the various dynasties, new emperors also had a terrible habit of practically destroying everything that the previous dynasty had built, such as palaces, educational institutions, etc. I don’t know enough to know the reasons, but it does feel entrenched in the Chinese culture. Maybe it’s more accurate to say the Chinese don’t like leftovers? :wink:

Disposability is a symptom of a deeper problem
Aside from physical buildings, I think the culture of disposability was, in fact, imported relatively recently from the West—namely its culture of consumerism. As I mentioned before, the Chinese culture is built on personal relationships, so the “social currency” is guanxi—one that can often be padded by an outward show of wealth. I think this is the main reason for the Chinese buying so much luxury goods but also why they keep switching brands. This phenomenon is complementary to the West’s consumerism, and the act of buying and throwing things out is the same, but the motivation is slightly different. If you look at market trends from a macro scale, you’ll see how in the U.S., consumers have begun to shift away from big box stores and flocking to heritage brands and “simpler” goods, from food to clothing to even housing (again, macro scale here). This is simply a dip in a cyclical trend of buying more, then buying less, then buying more. However, if you look at the China market, it’s an incessant search for the “next status object”. This makes for a trend that’s self-fulfilling with no end in sight—until you hit a bubble such as the recent market dip and the housing market that’s already being artificially propped up by the central government.

I don’t believe this sense of disposability is the same as the one in Japan. In China, it’s utter disregard for the old in search of the new for its social currency. In Japan, it’s more of a conscious decision: the old is something that no longer fulfills a purpose nor retain its value; thus, the better way is to build anew. Perhaps the Japanese’s general desire for perfection is a factor here.

This was big news just recently, and it followed the embarrassing, recent scandal of Fudan University’s 115th anniversary promotional video, which was found to be a ripoff of a video made by the University of Tokyo. To make matters worse, Fudan’s logo for the anniversary was a copy of the Apple Touch ID logo.

Here’s my take on it:

The Chinese’s usual defense of saying they were “inspired” is more or less genuine. The problem is their inability to differentiate “inspired by” and “copying”.
When you have an educational system and a culture that encourage and, in many cases, FORCE rote learning, it’s not easy to know where the line is drawn. The typical method of teaching in classroom is to have the teacher stand in front of the class and read from a textbook. The students are then expected to listen, copy notes, and regurgitate this information on a test—over and over again. There is hardly any sort of debate or criticism in the classroom. In fact, many college students I’ve met have a very hard time taking the slightest criticism (this is compounded by the “little emperor” phenomenon); it’s not so much overt sensitivity but rather an inability to understand and absorb critique that is counter to your own convictions. In the west, the idea of being challenged in ideas and subsequently make your own decisions—the foundation of a healthy debate, the jury system, even political voting—is established at a very young age.

In China, this is not the case. The overwhelming priority, when faced with a conflict of opinions, is to resolve things amicably rather to determine who’s right and who’s wrong. This also means that two sides of the “truth” can be molded until there’s overlap and compromise; basically, a solution where everyone saves face. This helps keep the atmosphere friendly (or breeds passive aggressiveness), but it doesn’t help progress when everything is left as-is. This traces back to the Chinese’s unwillingness to rob others of “face”; that is, if you openly criticized another student’s opinion, then you did not give him/her face, and thus, you must now assume there’ll be repercussions unless your social position protects you from it. And this is a risk that very few people are willing to take. When the act of debate is not protected in the classroom, then that fear of losing face extends to outside the classroom and into the professional realm. The entire social construct in China reinforces this.

So, back to the copying: the motivation of making small changes is actually a mechanism to save face. By using what’s been proven to work (and what “works” is an animated car using these colors and these facial expressions), you 1) avoid the risk of doing something that’s original but terrible, 2) give yourself a fall back. In the end, you get work that is—and isn’t, technically—the same as an earlier work.

The Chinese will slowly learn to identify copying, but the motivations to improve are very few.
The BIGGEST thing that the West will never understand about the Chinese is this: even if the Chinese were caught red-handed in copying, their takeaway ISN’T “We’ve let down ourselves and others”, it’s “We lost face.” The first takeaway would compel them to do better next time; the latter will simply build resentment against those who pointed out the shameful act, namely the West. It’s sad, but it’s true. There has been no significant improvement in China’s copying—in media, technology, or creative fields—the risks are simply too high. And if everyone’s already copying, it makes little sense to put yourself at an inherent disadvantage by wanting to do everything on your own. Over time, the Chinese will identify “pitfalls”, or key areas to avoid copying, but that’s hardly originality.

The West will need to adjust more. But that’s an untapped opportunity.
The mentality of “we’re being inspired until we’re caught copying” is an excuse to cover the fact that they genuinely can’t tell the difference. The fact that the work is SO similar is more due to the Chinese wanting to take the “safe and proven” route rather than doing so out of some evil intention to just copy (which is how most Westerners view this). That strong preference for low risk is fundamentally Confucian. This won’t change anytime soon. The West, if it wants to be successful in doing business in China must first recognize this and instead find opportunities to educate consumers about the true benefits of originality rather than being overly vocal about copying; otherwise, their complaints will fall on deaf ears. Worse, they might turn consumers against them.

That confirms what I thought, but thank you for the ultra-clear elaboration. So now the question is, how do we get the west off of the litigation pathway (no point, as the east won’t learn nor enforce IP) and channel all that money in research & development? Right?! :slight_smile:

(Edited for clarity)

Yes…and no. Your conclusion is only partially true, and is, in fact, the conclusion that many larger companies have come to—but even then, they don’t actually follow through with it. A better solution is more nuanced (as are most things with the Chinese). Here’s why:

Litigation in China is unreliable for reaching positive verdicts, but it can be a good platform for communicating with your customers.
Remember earlier that shaming a Chinese copycat is double-edged sword: you can be right yet lose the hearts of your customers. Litigate too hard—like Aston Martin did to its supplier and Land Rover with Land Wind—and the public will turn against you, thinking you’ve become a bully who can’t keep your house in order; it’s much easier for the local copycat to play the nationalism card—which often trumps all else. It would be much wiser (and I encourage more foreign companies to do so) to use litigation more as a platform to speak up about the benefits of originality, i.e. you are litigating to help keep unsafe products off the market, to help encourage everyone at your company to do the best work they can, etc. But you need to do this proactively rather than reactively—and infrequently. The reason for the infrequency is this: you can’t follow through with the litigation until the end (unless you can pull some major strings) without the public turning against you; it’s better to quickly settle or drop it entirely. Then be open about how this experience should be shared by everyone and that it is your hope that your loyal customers will continue to believe in genuine articles. This is simply good PR practice. More important, it avoids the big black hole that is litigation in China. (Notice how automakers drop the matter very suddenly and quietly, while the copycats are still mostly for sale.)

Investment in quality R&D has a very low ROI in China, and in fact, the market may move too quickly for it
This is partly due to the copycat, of course, but also due to the often-wild fluctuations in market trends as well as the rapidity with which products improve over time. The Chinese system is built on iterative improvements. For example, the Xiaomi (a cellphone maker) OS, called MIUI and based on the Android platform, is actually better than Android because the company constantly releases fixes to bugs within Android and it responds very quickly to user-originated feedback. Even Google, with its massive resources, is not able to do this. Basically, instead of the 6-12 months for, say, a technological leap, the market forces rapid “baby steps” that actually cater to the users; it’s actually more of a fluid flow rather than a step-like progression. Therefore, the motivation to “leap frog” through R&D is very low; it’s shown to be much more successful to build on an existing platform and iterate towards perfection. This not unlike the tried-and-true Toyota model of iterative/constant improvement, only not as refined.

Better to invest in more iconic designs and products
From a branding and design perspective, resources are better spent at designing something more iconic and timeless for the China market rather than China-specific R&D. The requisite R&D should still be done in the West—aside from products that need to cater to the specific physiological/medical needs of the country. I’m talking only about branding and, specifically, product design. I think this is where the companies are misstepping; they originally thought that they can import their goods directly and be successful, and now they think they need to do full-scale innovation work for the market. The former is inflexible, and the latter can’t adapt quickly enough. It’s something in-between.

Take, for example, cars: I can point to Porsche’s immense success in China in its ability to maintain a very consistent brand visual throughout its model range. The looks of the Macan, the Cayenne, and the Panamera are so iconic and derivative of the 911 shape that they, in turn, help alleviate Porsche’s pressures of being copied, because it’s too obvious. Whereas BMWs, Land Rovers, and Beats headphones are copied all the time because they’re more reliant on smaller specific design elements, such as the kidney grill or a big “b” logo. When the public (and thus, the copycats) can’t identify those visual cues, it’s inevitable that then copycats think they’re safe from litigation—and the brands get pulled in with no good coming from it. (Of course, this also means sports cars are inherently more protected—people who can afford it wouldn’t want to buy fakes and copycats would be impractical for ordinary people.)

The key here is to develop a visual look—in branding, packaging, sculptural form, whatever it is—that’s very unique to the brand and stick with it—changing it as needed to market trends but not be derailed by competitors. Starbucks is very, very good at this—putting its logo/color/wordmark on everything from mugs to thermoses to moon cakes and notebooks—a balance of the brand and of the cultural/local associations that people can flock to.

Lastly, the brand should be honest about itself: if it’s selling a commodity, then the brand visual must exist on a wider range of products. If it’s selling something premium, then that product must undergo frequent changes that don’t change the core—plus product extensions once in a while. If your brand isn’t doing this already, it’s extremely hard to adopt to this model, but it could also mean saving your company in the long run.

So which companies are the ones to watch, which are getting it right, from both sides of the world? Especially new ones. For me personally, I’m more interested in the purely product design ones, but I realize the ‘designscape’ has extended far beyond that now, XiaoMi and Apple being great examples.

Also, eastern viewpoints being what they are, is there any interest in becoming a worldsupplier? I imagine it must be very hard for them to emphatize with other markets, yet the african and south-american markets are still pretty much up for grabs to both east and west (which, I realize, is a really oversimplified way of looking at it).

Anyway, hope you’re getting as much out of organizing your thoughts as I am!

I, too, am more interested in product design (of course, I’ll need to bring in the aspects of branding), so I’ll try to comment on the good and bad examples:

Xiaomi
I know I used Xiaomi as an example in my earlier post, but, in fact, right now Xiaomi is struggling to stay ahead of its competitors. What Xiaomi has been doing right is the iterative improvement aspect of its business. What it hasn’t done, however, is invest in the differentiation aspect of its product offerings. After all this success, Xiaomi still never produced anything that’s iconic that it can leverage for long-term growth. It has a loyal customer base that appreciates its affordable yet high-quality products, but that’s a recipe that other local players can duplicate very easily with enough money, because at the end of the day, Xiaomi phones are pieced together with off-the-shelf (albeit very good) components and running an Android skin. From a corporate culture aspect, Xiaomi also doesn’t have the confidence to be iconic even though it has plenty of cushion. If things don’t change in the next few years, don’t be surprised if another Xiaomi-like company takes over Xiaomi’s spot.

China tech players
Same issues with Xiaomi: the big players all grew so quickly that many of them—Alibaba, Tencent, TCL, Lenovo, Midea—are facing big challenges in being more than just mass-volume players and suppliers. With the possible exception of Geely buying Volvo, I don’t foresee any major Chinese brands entering the U.S. market in a legitimate way (like Korean and Japanese brands from decades earlier) and staying there. They simply don’t have the mentality required to penetrate a mature market. Even BYD’s electric buses haven’t really found a solid market beyond LA. So yes, I am disagreeing with the many business magazines proclaiming otherwise. I think most Chinese brands will find their own market to be enough of a challenge that they’d rather protect their home base than invest in branding themselves in distant markets. From a revenue perspective, TV makers such as TCL can still make a killing by being sold in big-box stores like Walmart, Costco, and Sam’s Club, but they won’t rise to the brand recognition level of Sony or Samsung for a while. African and Middle Eastern markets are different, however, given that many of them are developing markets so Chinese products strike an appealing balance in quality and price.

Foreign consumer electronics players (except Apple)
China will be, if not already, an uphill battle for most foreign consumer electronics players such as Samsung, JBL, Sony, Panasonic, etc., because of how cheap the local alternatives are. The sole bright spot is probably digital cameras; the local players are not willing to invest in the technology to produce great sensors and lenses on their own to compete. HOWEVER, cell phones and tablets are a different story; local brands often purchase key components such as processors and built-in cameras from well-known brands (an example of successful co-branding) such as Sony. As a result, Sony’s TV business might be suffering, but its electronic component business could be booming. In the long run, however, Sony might come to rely too much on this. Samsung is facing even bigger issues, since it has come to rely on its mobile business so much but Xiaomi basically ate its lunch. JBL, Logitech, Bose, and other audio-specific brands don’t have enough differentiation beyond mediocre styling to justify the price premium. Harmon Kardon and B&O might find enough success in the luxury market, but again, they need to be always on top of the iterative improvements, like Porsche does.

Beats
Too much of a trend with few ties to first-tier musicians or even a DJ culture, which Beats has been able to leverage in the U.S. I wouldn’t be surprised if Beats is a money-losing operation in China. Compared to a peak a couple of years ago, I hardly even see them anymore. Xiaomi, for example, offers earphones that have very similar sound signatures to Sennheisers—for $15 USD, INCLUDING shipping. That’s the challenge to tech brands in China: how to sell high-quality audio/video/performance to a general public that 1) doesn’t have the discerning requirements for quality, and 2) can get nearly the same quality—not even mediocre, but almost just as great—as the premium brands at 10% of the price, or less.

Apple
I don’t think I need to say a lot about Apple—given that the company is taking 92% of the profits of the entire smartphone industry. The key to its success is, again, its balance of iterative improvement (4 to 4s, 5 to 5s, etc.) plus a healthy dose of iconic design from its products to its website—further strengthened by great branding and locally attuned communication. Part of the iconic branding of Apple is actually stubbornness; it’s a well-respected quality in China to refuse to change because it speaks to consistency—as long as it’s unique to you (e.g. the single home button) and you can make it work. This business model happens to fit very well with the China market. I see many major brands’ ads in China; Apple consistently has the best Chinese copywriters anywhere—no tongue-in-cheek jokes, no abstract superlatives that sound great but mean little, no cheesy Chinese tag lines, no heavy-handedness in Western-ness. Just honest, simple, conversational copywriting. And no crazy promotions and social media ads. The only other brand that is close to Apple here is Nike.

Luxury car makers
With the exception of Porsche, the vast majority of luxury car brands are absolutely horrendous at communicating their brands—which they really need to improve if their products are being ripped off left and right. It often sounds like the same creative agencies are doing the work for BMW, Mercedes, Audi, and Land Rover. Actually, I wouldn’t be surprised if the same handful of people are leading these brands given the high turnover and revolving doors at these agencies. Sports car brands like Ferrai, Lamborghini, Maserati, Maclaren, etc. will always leverage their iconic styling, so there’s less pressure for the communication to be spot-on; it’s more about investing in a brand experience for their customers.

Starbucks
Hugely successful in China (but now facing severe lack of manpower to support its expansion plans). By pushing out seasonal products that correspond with Chinese local traditions and holidays—including collectible products—Starbucks continues to be a showcase of how to balance core products with locally adjusted offerings. No one else comes close. Interestingly, the proliferation of Starbucks has sparked a wave of independent coffee shops in Shanghai and Beijing, which are often more successful than local coffee chains such as Pacific Coffee and Costa Coffee.

A little late to the party… I hope it’s not too late :wink:

I spent a semester in Shanghai at university a while ago and picked up a little mandarin in a base language course.
Now I am considering going back to China (or maybe Taiwan) to learn the language fulltime (for 6 or 12 months).
Of course that would be time I couldn’t push my career as an industrial designer.
Do you think the effort would be worth it? It is a skill that I would have to learn more or less from scratch, so of course I want to know if there actually would be any demand for something like a chinese speaking designer? Would there be any opportunities careerwise?
Then again there are many American-born Chinese who could probably fill those positions just as well or even better since they probably are more proficient in the language than I ever will be… so maybe it is just a waste of time (careerwise)? What are your thoughts on this?

Chinese for career advancement
I’m of two minds about this. First of all, you can certainly look for a job in China, but speaking Chinese won’t be a huge selling point for foreigners looking to work in China. Why? Because:

  1. The current practice is to hire native Chinese who have studied overseas. Because English is taught in China from an early age, the vast majority returnees will speak English far better than foreigners speaking Chinese. AND their salaries will be much less than the equivalently positioned foreigner. For example, in Shanghai, a foreign-educated Chinese designer can be had for only $2000/month, but most foreign designers would find that hard to live on.
  2. Foreigners who are hired tend to be upper-level management, whereas mid- and low-level management are now mostly native Chinese. Foreigners are also often found in internships, since many local companies like adding the “cachet” of having a foreign employee for low cost.

So the best thing is to learn Chinese first and then while you’re here, look for job opportunities. If you have the money to support yourself, take on an internship/entry position where you can gain experience as a designer but also learn and practice Chinese in a design-oriented environment.

On the other hand, if you’re talking about jobs in the U.S., speaking Chinese can help—especially if your company does a lot of work with China. For example, there are design studios who bridge the gap between a creative agency and a production agency; they specialize in delivering ‘production-ready’ designs, so if you speak Chinese, you can help mitigate some of the cultural gaps in their communications with suppliers in China. The assumption, of course, is that your Chinese is good enough to use industry-specific terminologies. (During your stay, you should learn as many of these terms as possible.)

Places to learn Chinese
If you want to learn ‘business’ Mandarin, I think a safe choice is Shanghai. Taiwan is, of course, a nice place to live, but their particular colloquial pronunciation can sometimes be too ‘local’–depending on your instructor–for a business setting. That is not a knock on the Taiwanese, but the Chinese language is filled with ‘add-ons’ (i.e. the English equivalent being things like ‘yeah’, ‘nuh-uh’, ‘like’, ‘no way’, ‘for real?’, etc.), and the Taiwanese-style, conversational Mandarin often goes a bit far with these, which sometimes isn’t as professional-sounding. Taiwan, however, is a very friendly place and many foreigners feel much more at-ease there than they do in mainland China. Nevertheless, as a foreigner learning Mandarin for a presumably business scenario, it’s best to stick with more middle-of-the-road accented, neutral Mandarin, and Shanghai is pretty good with this on a day-to-day basis. As a bonus, Shanghai is probably the most foreigner-friendly city in China (but this can hinder your Chinese if you’re always spending time with other foreigners). Beijing, as you may know, has the ‘official’ Mandarin, but its properness is, in my opinion, too heavy for a foreigner to learn—like learning strongly British-accented English. Many foreigners I’ve met who learned Beijing Mandarin overdo the “rolled tongue”. It’s so identifiable that when you overlay an English accent, the resulting Mandarin will sound quite odd. The upside being that you’ll certainly elicit a friendly chuckle from the Chinese :smiley:. Note that both Taiwan and Shanghai have their own local dialects; Taiwanese often speak Min-nan, or ‘Taiwanese’, and the Shanghainese speak Shanghainese. They are vastly different from Mandarin.

Learning is always what you make of it
I wouldn’t dismiss your learning period in China as not helpful to your career. Companies are often looking for people with international life experiences. That being said, what you take out of your stay in China will depend on YOU. If you’re serious about learning Chinese, force yourself to be exposed to the language at every opportunity. I have foreigner friends who, after a decade in China, cannot speak full sentences because they’ve grown too comfortable within the ‘foreigner bubble’. And because most white-collar Chinese in Shanghai can converse in English, there’s also less need to speak Chinese. It’s really up to you how much you make of your time here. Good luck.

I agree with DesignerinShanghai.

If what you want is to learn Chinese, just go ahead and do it but I don’t think it’d be an advantage for landing a job unless you were bilingual.
Life in Shanghai is quite expensive as well, if your plan is just to study Chinese, some 2nd tier city like Hangzhou or Taiwan maybe a better option.
It’s also true that most foreigners here don’t speak Chinese, like myself, you just don’t need it to go around.

In my opinion, it’d be your portfolio and experience what would open a door for you in the design industry here. Note that 2 years experience after graduating are required for the visa, even though there are ways to go around that.

Great thread and thank you DeisgnerInShanghai for your time to share all these experiences you have collected while there.
I am a European designer, having worked and lived in Taiwan for 5 years, recently quit y job as creative director in a design office here as i plan to set up my own office that will connect European clients with Taiwanese (primarily) resources (no, i am not planning and i do not expect that Taiwanese will follow me for my design services… but that is another subject).
Well, with my Taiwanese wife (also designer and kind of manufacturer) we plan to visit Shanghai soon for few days and although we will be busy attending trade shows and visiting with perspective clients (for my wife’s business) , if we have time i would like to get to know as much i can the local design and startup/entrepreneurial scene.
I wonder if you could suggest us (but also to anyone else visiting the city) places, organizations etc that we could visit.
Thanks a lot for any info you can share.

The quickest answer: http://www.timeoutshanghai.com/ It’s an online guide to everything that’s happening in the city.

And on a related, but kind of tangential note…(hope that’s ok)
As for your inquiry about the local design scene, and speaking from a strictly PERSONAL experience…unless you have personal connections that will allow you to actually visit a creative studio, the simple fact is that China’s start-up/entrepreneurial scene is a mess. Almost EVERYONE here is an entrepreneur or is soon-to-be one. The barrier to entry is so low—small, local design agencies will work practically for free—that “design” is not even really a meaningful term to use anymore. Wanting/needing/paying for design is akin to saying, “I want/need/will pay for lighting in my store/business.”

I’m not exaggerating. The downward price pressures on mid to large design studios is so big that it’s extremely hard to sustain a design business here. There are countless studios that already have templates—architectural, graphic, product, whatever you need—that they can output hundreds of interior designs, logos, packages a year. The studios that are successful are, for better or for worse, those with deep (read: government) connections that can get clients with the large budgets. As a design manager for a big corporation, I’m approached by studios and designers all the time, offering to do “first project for free”. I never take them up on it, because I think it degrades the effort designers put in (and degrades the value I bring as well, since I’ll be managing them), but I know this is often standard practice for even foreign companies working with creative agencies.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but if you’re serious about doing work in China, you need to be quite vicious and thick-skinned.

Hi DesignerInShanghai. Thank you for your quick and informative response. Although i do not have first-hand experience from designers that have worked there i hear the same with what you just said. To an extent things are similar in Taiwan as well, especially regarding the design fees that are super low as numerous small design studios will take most of the projects, even for $1000 (delivery time few days).
No, I do not have intention to attract Chinese clients (not even Taiwanese) as I do not have the connections, neither the patience to deal any more with this kind of customers.
Thanks again!

Just finished up a week in Ningbo/Shanghai, onward to Taiwan tomorrow. Some of your advice def came in handy!

Can you give some advice on this topic - KTV.
I was dragged into this last time I was over, this time I managed to dodge it by blaming jetlag and almost faking falling asleep. I will need to visit this place at least 5-6 times more and I am 100% certain KTV wil be on the agenda. HOW do I avoid it without causing anyone any face loss? Or do I simply adjust my moral high ground and play the game?

This is not an easy one—and it really depends on the kind of people they are and what position YOU have. I’m presuming you know this: KTV is sometimes a disguise/lead-in for “other” services—especially if the people who go with you are all men. KTV itself may be innocent, but if the party gets a bit crazy, you may be find yourself being offered these services afterwards. At this time, it WOULD be a loss of face to the host if you turned it down (since it’s usually paid for by the host). So, by all means, avoid this. A few things you can try:

  • Leverage the power of your title. If you’re an overseas manager/director, tell your contact (there’s usually a secretary who arranges your schedule) in Ningbo/Shanghai to NOT plan anything for you in the evening (or after dinner, depending on your preference). If she/he needs a reason, say you have conference calls EVERY NIGHT with the U.S. and you need to be in your hotel. Your status should give you a pass. Downside: if you’re skipping dinner, plan to eat whatever room service has.
  • Be Debbie Downer. I personally don’t smoke, but nearly every male co-worker of mine does, and this excuse still works quite well. When you get invited, say that you’ve been to many KTVs in the past, but you don’t smoke nor do you drink. If they’re pushy about it, say that smelling smoke makes you sick, and how “that last time I smelled a lot of smoke, and I had to go to the hospital.” Most people draw the line at going to the hospital. Stronger excuse: say you just had a health check in the U.S., and how your doctor said you MUST not drink/smoke any more for the sake of your liver/lungs, whatever. Even if you enjoy social drinking, try to keep it to friends, not coworkers. A beer can lead to more beer, then to wine, then to baijiu…then to the KTV.
  • Ask for a more low-key alternative. For example, ask around to see if there are any cafes around. Ask early in the day (the Chinese love someone who looks forward to dinner as much as they do) and ask several people (most people want to be helpful) so that you’re beginning to establish that you’re the “cafe guy”. Overtime, they’ll know that you prefer these kind of places and even default to the cafe for dinner. This will also lessen the idea that you’re a party guy. If there are no cafes, ask for a local cuisine that they love—this way, you get decent food, eat at a likely family-oriented place (because they eat there themselves), and avoid the BIG restaurants, where there are endless toasts and people get drunk, which inevitably leads to KTV.
  • Be more boring. I don’t mean for you to not be conversational, but it helps to talk about more “boring” stuff, like how you like to read, how you like to take camping trips, like to visit museums, photography, and other low-key things—stay somewhat honest so you can back it up. If you have family, even better: talk about your grandma, your partner, your children, your parents, your pet; yes, be that “family guy”. Show them photos on your phone to really drill in that idea. Never talk about how you like foot massages, spas, drinking, partying, pretty women, or singing; they can ALL segue into KTV. In fact, by mentioning those, they’ll likely try even harder to get you to go. By all means, be a great/fun talker, but you need to be careful what you seem to be enthusiastic about.
  • Avoid small, grumpy talk. If you DO smoke, try to smoke by yourself. Again, lots of Chinese smoke, and they’ll use smoke time as a way to chat you up, talk about work/family/personal stress—and, of course, how they haven’t been to a KTV in a long time. The chummier you are with them and the grumpier you are about work, the more likely they want to invite you to “de-stress”. If you can’t avoid this, talk work during your smoke break. During downtime, keep chats professional, friendly, and short. If that’s unavoidable, resort to the tips above: talk family, cafes/alternatives, health issues, etc.
  • Be gracious. KTV may very well be the best thing they’ve heard all month; visitors are often THE reason they finally get a well-deserved break. The host will likely have called around for restaurants/KTVs and invited a bunch of people BEFORE they even mentioned it to you (they can’t invite the VIP if they don’t have the crowd ready). If you decline, you’re making lots of people very disappointed. So it helps to establish your “boringness” as early as possible to keep expectations low. If you’re still invited, be gracious: thank them for it and say you’re very sorry for letting them down. Next time, you might want to bring a small gift (box of foreign chocolates/sweets always work) to them as a small apology (which also helps remind them that you REALLY don’t do KTVs).

Other tips:

  • Unless you’re feeling brave and adventurous (or in Shanghai city center), I wouldn’t head out to get “local” food on your own.
  • Whenever I’m in an unfamiliar city in China, I try to stay at a hotel with a Starbucks nearby; this ensures that the area is pretty populated, has decent transportation, and most important, gives me a reliable source of safe food.

Good luck!