A bunch of random questions concerning ID.

Design Discussions students and schools
1

Yes, I realize that answering my questions is probably getting old. But choosing a college and career is probably one of the most important decisions I’ll make in my life, as it most likely was for you. Anyway, I had some other questions that didn’t really relate to each other, so I threw them all together.


1) When I look at portfolios, it seems like the main skill an employer looks for is drawing ability (at least to me, and from reading on here.) I’ve looked at a bunch of them, and (hoping I’m not offending anyone) I’m not really that impressed with the actual designs. The artwork is no doubt great, and it’s easy to spot talent there. But the actual concepts just seem pointless and redundant to me. In any case, I just don’t really like what I’m seeing.

Kind of talking about school-specific ones, like Carleton and UC.

Is this only because they are students, or what?

But my other concern is with portfolios on this site that are well-received. I still have the same feelings about the majority of these: the artwork is good, but the designs I’m seeing are kind of redundant and aren’t new innovative ideas.

I’m trying to figure out if a ID education will be for me if I’m more concerned with creating a new product that accomplishes something (as in, innovates/saves energy/ etc in a new way, not just designing a watch or some other everyday item.

It’s not like I’m some brilliant inventor, but it just seems like ID is focused more on aesthetics and redesigning basic ideas rather than coming up with new ways to do things. Or am I completely off on this? Looking for feedback.




2. How intense is the ID curriculum? WIll I have a lot of free time?

This sort of ties in with question 3. Right now I’m kind of torn between two career paths; video game design and ID. To put a long explanation short, game design doesn’t really require a specific degree, but rather can be largely self-taught. ID doesn’t appear to be the same.

Thus my dilemma is the following:

Do I go to a design school (UC, Virginia Tech, Carleton are top picks), get a degree in ID/etc. and have some of it apply to video game design (if I choose to go that route), and possibly not have enough time to work on and learn programs that I’ll need for VG design (It seems like a lot of these design schools are very time intensive.) Finally it will most likely be more expensive to go to a design school, and it won’t be in my hometown.

OR

I can go to a normal college (U. of Pittsburgh) while saving a lot of money and having more time to learn the programs/etc. that I’ll need to get a VG job. I like the area (probably more so than any of the aforementioned design schools).

So it’s kind of a tough choice, and it’s why I’m spending so much time asking questions about ID.




3. What specific tools will I learn from an ID school that can apply to video game design? I’m talking about Maya, Photoshop, etc. Are these a large part of a typical ID curriculum?

Here are a few game companies websites, and what they are looking for:

from: > Valve Corporation

Artists
3 + years industry experience
Working knowledge of Maya or XSI and Photoshop, Mudbox, Zbrush a plus
Ability to take a piece from concept to final product




from: > http://insomniacgames.com/careers/art.php

ART

We are looking for is someone who has:

Worked with design to create dramatic compositions.

Modeled natural and architectural game objects.

Created textures, normal maps, and surfaces for environments.

Collaborated with design and programming to create working game levels.

Has lit game environments.

Things that we are looking for you to have done:

Strong sense of form, color, and composition.

Demonstrated skills with Maya and Photoshop required.

Peerless attention to detail.

Advanced Maya or Max user.

Advanced mesh sculpting with Mudbox or Zbrush.

Bachelor’s degree (B.A.) from a four-year college or university; or two to four years related experience and/or training; or equivalent combination of education and experience.

Game credits and lighting experience a plus.

Is there anything in there that I would learn directly from being in an ID program?


Thanks for all the help.

2
  1. Student work is vast and varys. I’ve seen students come up with great ideas that they’ve gone out and gotten patents on, and I’ve seen student’s come up with terrible ideas. Let’s face it - not everyone is good at what they do.

Some students are innately gifted at the artistic aspect. Some focus on CAD software and practical aspects. Some focus on blue sky (super-far out concepts with little basis in reality) etc. If projects “look the same” it’s probably because you’re judging a project knowing very little about it - thats why sketches work so well.

Sketches/drawings can show “hey I had lots of ideas and I picked this one”. While you may not recognize it, if you had a student sit down and explain the project it might seem more interesting.

Remember that you’re talking about design STUDENT work. These are people who might only have 1 year of actual design education. When fellow designers look at it they can say “hey thats not bad for a student - keep up the good work!” or critique it accordingly. Design is a VERY subjective field. As we have written on a wall in my office “one mans bland is another mans clean!”

I’m trying to figure out if a ID education will be for me if I’m more concerned with creating a new product that accomplishes something (as in, innovates/saves energy/ etc in a new way, not just designing a watch or some other everyday item.

It’s not like I’m some brilliant inventor, but it just seems like ID is focused more on aesthetics and redesigning basic ideas rather than coming up with new ways to do things.

The reality is theres sometimes only SO much you can do as a design student Designing something that ACTUALLY saves energy or is TRULY innovattive is very hard. Theres thousands of people out there already trying to do things - you’d be surprised how often a student comes up with an idea and when presenting it to a large group someone says “hey that was done already”.

ID is focused on BOTH refining basic ideas AND coming up with new ways to do things. We leverage styling, technical innovation, materials and processes to create new and better ideas for products. What might not be useful to you might be very useful to another demographic.

2)Their is a DIRECT correllation between time spent in the studio and quality of your work. It’s that simple.

The students that work the hardest (5% brains, 95% hard work) have the best portfolio, land the best internships and eventually the best jobs. The students that don’t work so hard (either because they’re lazy or have other interests) tend to go to grad school or fall into various design-related fields but not actual design.

Will you have time to do other things sure - and if you want to learn 3D tools for video game stuff you can tailor your project to whats fun for you. You can do animations in Maya, use Zbrush to decorate your cad models (I would love to see some awesome footwear modelled in zbrush), build your own stuff in your spare time, etc. None of the video game tools are ID specific - BUT many can be used in conjunction with more traditional design software to create really nice work. But to answer question #3 - most design schools will give you a very basic understanding of CAD with 1 package and let you choose your own from their on out. Most schools I’ve seen are teaching Alias, Solidworks or Rhino.

As a reference I spent a LOT of time in Maya during college doing NURBS, polygon modelling AND sub division modelling. I made it my own personal goal to use a new technique on every project I did and it greatly enhanced the portfolio of software I knew and what I could do with it.

But if you aren’t willing to work hard at all of it you’ll wind up as a mediocre industrial designer and a mediocre video game designer.

3

Answer to #2)

no free time. sleep in the studio on some blue or pink foam.

-or- have free time and ‘compete’ with the other students who sleep in the studio.

I always thought that whenever I slept, someone else was working


that being said, whenever theres a break in the workload-- enjoy every moment fully.
and, its all worth it.

4

you can change majors, even transfer between universities.
It’s not like you never get to change your mind, ID, VG, ME, you probably can’t know your calling untill you’ve tried all 3, so start at a school with all 3.

5

I saw this on core today,

“If you’re spending 14 hours a day at your job, you’re probably not very good at it.”
-Liz Dunn, Funny or Die

So theoretically you should have plenty of free time as a student right? No, as a student assume you suck at your job and need to work at it to become a good designer. I don’t know how much you personally will have to “sleep in the studio” I have, not every night, but occasionally.

I also saw some people who would pull the perfectionist bit, staying in the studio for hours and hours leading up to project deadlines, running around acting like a chicken with its head cut off. They would spend hours repeating tasks that probably didn’t need to be repeated. For instance, primer and wet sand. After the second or third coat and sand, the quality you gain in repetition starts to drop when compared to the amount of time you spend. I would look at the thing, ask myself if there were other tasks I could be completing and weigh their importance against the gain. So I usually only put two to three coats of primer on. I was also the shop tech, so I supposed it can be assumed that I had advanced knowledge of finishing techniques, and maybe I ought to have spent that extra time showing him how to get reasonable techniques in shorter times, but he was so concerned about the details and acting like a perfectionist he didn’t have time to listen or to realize that there would be no way to actually attach the thing into a car.

Rambling aside, I think this parable can represent some of design on a whole, its about details and the big picture, and the area between these two. As a designer, or engineer for that matter there will be concepts that are awesome, but then when you start to think about them, the extra energy, costs, time or environmental impact that goes into them may not be worth the gains.

oh right, you can sleep, but not during shop hours!




Design schools and universities don’t teach you how to be a software operator, if thats what you want to be, than find a local tech school, you will probably learn the software better and pay less money.

6

Yeah sure, once you know what you’re doing! But it’s definitely not true when it comes to getting your undergrad from scratch.

Undergrad ID is like cramming 6 years of work into 4, hence the lack of sleep.

7

it’s not that I don’t want to work hard, but more of the fact that I don’t want to spend some ungodly amount of time doing something I’m not quite sure I want to do as a career.

What exactly takes up so much of an ID student’s time? Is it creating models, as carton said? Or is the curriculum in general just time consuming? I ask because honestly I could care less about making models, I’d rather be focused on function and maybe prototypes incorporated with aesthetics, instead of making models that don’t really serve a real purpose other than presentation. Or are models usually working prototypes, more than just for looks ?

My concern is that I’ll go into an Id program, decide that it isn’t for me, and then be behind inthe video game stuff because I didn’t have any free time to learn the programs and build vg stuff. I thought maybe I could still get an id degree, and learn something that still is useful for vg stuff in case I don’t go into id, but that doesn’t seem to be the case.

8

Making models is a tiny fraction of what you spend your time on. You are given a project brief and then expected to find a problem, propose your solutions to that problem, research, design and develop those solutions.

You’ll be given deadlines and deliverables on when you need to present your work, what you need to present, and will be subsequently ripped apart by your professors and classmates and have to go back and do it ALL over again. I was in college for 5 years and I NEVER made models that were any more complex then yellow foam test models to understand size and ergonomics. Some schools make you do appearance models (painted models that look realistic) but in todays business thats a useless skill - we have machines and professionals to do that for us.

The design process a student can learn typically includes (in no particular order):

Writing
Graphic Design
Interface Design
Sketching
Field Research
Market Research
User Research
Sketching
CAD modelling
Wood working
Metal working
Model Building
Storyboarding
Sketching
Rendering
Creating Presentations
Creating Books
Drinking (Caffiene + beer)

As I mentioned in my post you can absolutely learn tools that relate to video game design. You could learn to do character animation by building an animation to show how your product is used by a person. But don’t expect to be designing ax wielding zombies for class. The flip side is now you’re taking your design education (which is a full time job) and ADDING the part time job of learning these gaming tools. Now factor in what happens if you need to get a REAL part time job to support yourself and the extra time you’ll have to actually enjoy yourself.

It’s all doable if you’re willing to work hard, budget your time, and actually have what it takes to be cut out for design. But expect to not get a lot of sleep. The joke that my friend would always make is if you asked him to do something he’d say “Sure, I’ll do it in my free time” - the joke of course being that he was never going to have free time and would never do it.

Design is extremely rewarding for some - they graduate with great skillsets and get good jobs. And for others they graduate with a sheet of paper saying they passed the required courses and they hope they can land whatever jobs they can, or they go back to grad school and focus on something specific.

If you REALLY want to do video game design then you may be better off considering an entertainment design program from the get go.

PS - if you don’t think this is relevant just know that I started doing video game design around age 13 and have done everything from coding to modelling to animation to level design. I got out of it because frankly there are TOO many people out there with INSANE amounts of talents that simply CANT get jobs in the gaming/entertainment industry. It goes back to my points that a good industrial designer brings MUCH more to the table then just the ability to make something look cool. A video game designer doesn’t.

9

I’d say the biggest issue right now is deciding what you want to be, what you want to do, what career path you’d like to go with. Tough choice, eh?

Also, I’d check out some books on ID. This will clear up and blow away an misconceptions about aesthetic-only design. Design is function, and beauty.

Best solution, as mentioned, pick a university with all 3 majors, and bounce around. You’re given electives so you can check out an “Intro to…” course here and there during your freshman year. Try all 3. If you find you really want to work in one of the fields, and there is a better school for it, transfer. No big deal.

It seems the ID question is, “what does it take to get there?”

There’s really no real way to answer that question. It can’t be said that you will sleep every night in your bed, or 2 days in the studio, or 30 days in the studio straight. If you’re the kind of person that knows what it takes to achieve goals without yielding, then you know the answer. You know if you’re the kind of person who can do what it takes to ‘get there’ with anything. It takes everything really, and it takes nothing. It’s going to be hard, but its certainly possible. Either you’re committed or you’re not.

10

read the next lines.

Look, as you can probably tell from what we have all said. there is no one way to get through school. No one can tell you what to be when you grow up, which is hard for some people that haven’t had to make a lot of major decisions up to that point. Plus, just go for it, if you don’t like it stop. Most people change careers a few times in their life anyway. You can’t tell what you’re going to want to do for the next 50 years. Dude, I don’t even know what I’m going to have for dinner, let alone where I’ll work in five years, or when I’m going to marry my girlfriend. I’m cool with not knowing, (she’s less cool not knowing the last one but thats a different topic). College isn’t about learning a specific trade anyway. If you need to know what you will be doing maybe you should go learn a very specific trade and limit your options. Options aren’t always good for everyone. Video game design would be very specific. But maybe you go to college and take some classes and find out you love biology and you didn’t even think you did. Maybe you don’t I don’t know, colleges are good places not to know.

11

no sleeping doesn’t sound pike much fun, hehe. I u derstand what you guys are saying, and going to a school that has both would probably be a good idea, but otw a little more complicated than that.

As I said before, Pitt is my main nondesign choice of school at the moment. The reason I’m hesitant to just go to Vt or UC is largely because of cost, and also because I like the pitt area. It’ll costs about 60k to go Pitt for 4 years, and that’s including room and board. This is about 40-50k less than some other school would be. It would be nice to graduate with no debt, to say the least.

But here’s another idea that may have some merit. Pitt is right next to CMU, which has an id major. I’m not interested in going to cmu, but there is a program which lets students take classes at nearby institutions at no xtra charge. You can only take one a semester, and they recommend not taking any your senior year, so I could possily take 6-8 classes in id at cmu. Do you think these combined with basic intro drawing and design classes at Pitt would be enough to give me some education in id on the specific areas I’m interested in, or not? I guess I wouldn’t be exactly ideal for an intro I’d job, but maybe enough to start my own business if I want to.

Sorry for all spelling and grammar errors, I’m on an iPhone.

12

I go to CMU and I think that actually managing to succeed in our ID classes at one class a semester, without the freshmen core classes, is pretty difficult. Every semester ID majors have a core studio class, and then take electives in addition (as I’m sure most colelges are), so I don’t think that you’d be able to succeed in the regard that you can only either take the studio (which is super intense and time consuming… as in you should be in studio when you’re not in class) or an elective that you will struggle in without the core studio foundation.

and in terms of video game design, what are ou thinking about? programming? concept art? If you’re talking about concept art, be prepared to put in a lot more work than a majority of ID students do, since it is a very competitive field that only the best will succeed in.


I’m not sure how easy it is to get into the CMU design courses as a Pitt student either (you’d have to email the design department to ask), but if you were just looking for classes that would aid you in becoming a sort of design business, there may be one or two. Business in design is a senior level course, though.

Why don’t you want to go to CMU over Pitt? I’m pretty sure the only thing Pitt is really good for is its medical stuff because of UPMC, and maybe other things but definitely not video game design (in contrast, CMU’s ETC is tops, but only takes grad students) or ID.

13

Hmm… that’s kind of disappointing then. I guess I didn’t think about the studio stuff. Do you think there are some classes, besides the business senior ones, that don’t really require a studio sort of thing?

For video games, I’m interested in the design aspect. Basically, there are 3 groups in that industry. Art, Programming, and Design. Design incorporates some of both, but also is largely writing and such. I’d get in the industry as a level designer and work my way up from there.

And I don’t want CMU because it’s way too expensive, and because I doubt I could get in there anyhow. My current SATS (680 reading, 510 math, 600 writing) are not that good, and even though I plan to do a lot better this fall on them, it still most likely won’t be enough.

14

Are you in Pittsburg?
spend a lot of time at CMU - talk to anyone/everyone in all the departments your interested in…really the best way to decide.

15

My suggestion…

Do this:

http://www.design.cmu.edu/show_program.php?s=2&t=3

Then this:

http://www.etc.cmu.edu/

16

it’s not that you keep asking questions, which is fine, but it seems like you aren’t really listening to the answers, and hope that somehow you will find someone to agree with you…

I’ve been following the threads, and have to say, it just doesnt seem like ID is the right choice for you. You are worried about making “things” you don’t appreciate the art and design of deisgn, you want to do ID education, but not put into it the time required, and still be able to do video game design…

in short, I can’t honestly see you making it more than 1 year max at any decent design school, cause it seems you heart isn’t in it.

to answer your questions specifically,

  1. yes, you need to draw as a designer. if you haven’t figured that out yet with all the “is sketching important?” threads around here, or don’t care for drawing, you are kind a outta luck.

student work, as said, is student work. you may think the concepts aren’t so hot, fine. let’s see yours. plus, in most cases for student work, its the process of design that is important, much more than the final result. that’s the point of school.

as for other portfolios, same goes. think you can do better, toss it up! if, however, as it seems everything about design you don’t like,while everyone else does, maybe you should take another look at your own perspective before criticizing the industry or others’ work.

you know design is not all about aesthetics. this has been covered before.

  1. ID is intense. yes. you will not have free time, you will work hard, and the amount of working hard is directly proportional to your success in life. period. this isn’t only ID, but life.

  2. i dont really know video game design, but based on the things you mention, it sounds pretty silly to do a 4 year professional program just to transfer skills to something you admit can be self taught.

you learn some 3d stuff, but i highly doubt in anyway it would be of much help or at a high enough level to do video game design.

sorry if this sounds harsh, but you’ve asked a lot of questions, got a lot of answers, but still you don’t seem to be making any progress. thought a “shove” in that case might help.

conclusion - find a college for video game design.

R

PS. Am I the only one here that sees the irony of you going on about how you don’t like the idea of making more ‘things’, dont like the aesthic issues of design, etc. but then want to make something as ephemeral, visual and non-constructive as video games? sorry but i can’t really see where you are coming from…

17

PS. Am I the only one here that sees the irony of you going on about how you don’t like the idea of making more ‘things’, dont like the aesthic issues of design, etc. but then want to make something as ephemeral, visual and non-constructive as video games? sorry but i can’t really see where you are coming from…

No, you’re not the only one, I totally agree.

18

yeah, it sounds like you have all the information you need from the things you say. Plus school starts in like a month so, you know, get on with it.

I wasn’t going to bring up the fact that you say you are totally against aesthetics but that you are into gaming, a lot of people hear that arguement while researching ID and develop an uninformed opinion so that they sound like they know what they are talking about. Most people get over it pretty quick. Industrial Design isn’t about designing stuff you like, that would be, well, nothing. ID is about making the company you work for money. I’m also going to go ahead and squash any “how about sculpture, thats where you make things you like” no, it isn’t, its much more subjective that ID can ever be, because ID can step back and say well whatever its all just business. ID and Sculpture are both about communicating ideas to audiences. I digress…

Your out of time guy, time to make a crisis decision, yes or no… if you can’t make a decision based on information you have gained up to a point, don’t bother trying ID.

19

Was thinking the same thing.

20
  1. yes, you need to draw as a designer. if you haven’t figured that out yet with all the “is sketching important?” threads around here, or don’t care for drawing, you are kind a outta luck.

That’s fine. I never said that I didn’t want to sketch, I love drawing. I was asking if the main skills an employer looks for, and that a student strives for, are sketching, presentation, etc. as opposed to having ideas. Whether someone else far away has done them already isn’t exactly the point. All I see are new spins on cars, shoes, electronics, etc etc etc. Has everyone given up on innovation in fear that someone else has already done it?

student work, as said, is student work. you may think the concepts aren’t so hot, fine. let’s see yours. plus, in most cases for student work, its the process of design that is important, much more than the final result. that’s the point of school.

as for other portfolios, same goes. think you can do better, toss it up! if, however, as it seems everything about design you don’t like,while everyone else does, maybe you should take another look at your own perspective before criticizing the industry or others’ work.

you know design is not all about aesthetics. this has been covered before.

Whether or not I can show you my ideas isn’t really relevant. I’m not impressed with some students’ work, and likewise with some other people. I don’t need to be a director to be a movie critic.

Maybe it’s because they are trying to showcase their skillset in their portfolio rather than a particular idea…? That’s what my first question was about.


  1. i dont really know video game design, but based on the things you mention, it sounds pretty silly to do a 4 year professional program just to transfer skills to something you admit can be self taught.

you learn some 3d stuff, but i highly doubt in anyway it would be of much help or at a high enough level to do video game design.

A degree is necessary to get any job anymore, and that includes the video game industry. That’s why I’m looking for a program that I’m interested it. One that wasn’t completely focused on one field would obviously be the best, which is why I don’t want to pick a specific tech type of school for game design.


conclusion - find a college for video game design.

R

There aren’t really any good, reputable schools that are specifically for game design. If you were to ask someone in the games industry (or any industry for that matter) if their college major and their current job are related, the majority of them will say no. Anthropology majors don’t all become anthropologists, etc.

I thought maybe the same was true for ID, but it seems like it’s for those who know what they want to do and are willing to dedicate their life to it. That’s fine, but I’m not really at that point yet. I’m trying to find some sort of degree or school that let’s me explore my options without demanding that I spend every waking moment on it and dedicate my life to it.

PS. Am I the only one here that sees the irony of you going on about how you don’t like the idea of making more ‘things’, dont like the aesthic issues of design, etc. but then want to make something as ephemeral, visual and non-constructive as video games? sorry but i can’t really see where you are coming from…

They way you are describing games is like calling a movie a bunch of moving images on a disc. It’s so much more than that, and the future is nearly limitless. Virtual reality sorts of programs are probably only a few decades away.

As far as I’m concerned, a short-lasting entertaining experience that (largely) makes little to no environmental impact is much better than a short-lasting cheap watch that’s used for 6 months then thrown in a landfill. Digital distribution technologies will likely reach the majority of households within the next few decades, rendering physical copies of games obsolete. Also don’t forget that video games are rarely thrown away. The market for used games is no doubt much larger than that of cheap manufactured products.

I don’t plan on making the status quo, no matter what industry I work in. Whether this means pumping out some cliche first person shooter game, or making cheap products, I won’t be doing it. Something that’s innovative and accomplishes something can negate the environmental trash it may cause. Unfortunately every shoe and consumer electronic out there doesn’t exactly break new ground. Maybe this isn’t avoidable in the world of industrial design, and that’s one of the things I’m trying to find out.