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% of cost for packaging

Postby PackageID » March 1st, 2011, 6:08 pm

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zippyflounder wrote:
Actually this is not true. Plenty of cans are printed. Depending on how the can is formed it can either be printed before it is formed as a sheet with traditional print methods or after through silk screening or pad printing.

I agree with R. If this is a premium coffee and is going to be shipped from an on-line source than I would expect at least a printed can with high end graphics, or at the very least a can with nice label. Also to put a peal top on it like a can of peaches is a bit off as you will not be able to reseal it. Think about how the user is going to use this and store it. also think about the fact that they have gone out of their way to order this on-line. This is not some $5 bag of coffee they just sample of the shelf. This is a planned purchase that has to deliver or else there will be no repurchase.

One other question. Is that box the box that it will ship in? Meaning is that the outer shipping container? If so that box will be beaten to hell by the time it gets to the consumer which makes that can even more important.
The can is heated to FIVE HUNDRED DEGREES, so any printing on it turns to smoke, gases and SMELL. The can is not for resealing, it generates just enough coffee for 1 pot. The reorders come because its the most perfect coffee money can buy, at any price.

Now I am confused on what manufacturing processes you are using to make these cans. Looks like a stock can to me which a either punched or in the case of a holiday tin rotary formed. Also in the case of it being a single serve I would say the outer box is very important but does not take away from the fact that the can still needs to be branded and special. How many of these come in a box? Seems like a lot of packaging for a single portion of coffee.

The can roasts coffee that makes 10 cups of brewed coffee and yes its a stock can as the tooling for a custom can runs over 7 figures (i know I researched the hell out of it) as to the "look" the R mentioned, the K cup looks like shit, costs a lot and they sold 3 billion of them last year.



I actually pulled over so I could respond to this. These kinds of post like the comments above really aggravate the hell out of me. You asked for packaging advice and when others with extensive knowledge of packaging try to give you help you make comments like"the K cup looks like shit and they sold billions of them"! Yes they did an no one is saying the K cup is premium. Just because a terrible design sells does not keen it is something you should copy. What you are saying is pkg design is not important as long as it sells. Also the kcup was built off an entire user proposition and IT IS BRANDED. You just have coffee you are saying is great in a can my grandfather would have buried cash in the backyard with. I am confused with the whole proposition.

I am now going to get back to my commute home.

EDIT: Post was sent from a stationary car not while driving....
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Re: % of cost for packaging

Postby Scott Bennett » March 1st, 2011, 6:12 pm

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Probably not cost effective (especially since it would have to be done on a 4 axis), but how about laser etching the can?

P.S. Does the can have a lining that burns off or offgasses at 500 degrees?

Re: % of cost for packaging

Postby rkuchinsky » March 1st, 2011, 6:16 pm

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Is this the K Cup?

Image

Warning, be careful searching "K Cup" at work if you don't have safe search on... not all results are for coffee ;)

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Re: % of cost for packaging

Postby zippyflounder » March 1st, 2011, 6:21 pm


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Scott Bennett wrote:Probably not cost effective (especially since it would have to be done on a 4 axis), but how about laser etching the can?

P.S. Does the can have a lining that burns off or offgasses at 500 degrees?
nope the inside is raw steel just like the outside.

Re: % of cost for packaging

Postby zippyflounder » March 1st, 2011, 6:24 pm


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PackageID wrote:
zippyflounder wrote:
Actually this is not true. Plenty of cans are printed. Depending on how the can is formed it can either be printed before it is formed as a sheet with traditional print methods or after through silk screening or pad printing.

I agree with R. If this is a premium coffee and is going to be shipped from an on-line source than I would expect at least a printed can with high end graphics, or at the very least a can with nice label. Also to put a peal top on it like a can of peaches is a bit off as you will not be able to reseal it. Think about how the user is going to use this and store it. also think about the fact that they have gone out of their way to order this on-line. This is not some $5 bag of coffee they just sample of the shelf. This is a planned purchase that has to deliver or else there will be no repurchase.

One other question. Is that box the box that it will ship in? Meaning is that the outer shipping container? If so that box will be beaten to hell by the time it gets to the consumer which makes that can even more important.
The can is heated to FIVE HUNDRED DEGREES, so any printing on it turns to smoke, gases and SMELL. The can is not for resealing, it generates just enough coffee for 1 pot. The reorders come because its the most perfect coffee money can buy, at any price.

Now I am confused on what manufacturing processes you are using to make these cans. Looks like a stock can to me which a either punched or in the case of a holiday tin rotary formed. Also in the case of it being a single serve I would say the outer box is very important but does not take away from the fact that the can still needs to be branded and special. How many of these come in a box? Seems like a lot of packaging for a single portion of coffee.


The can roasts coffee that makes 10 cups of brewed coffee and yes its a stock can as the tooling for a custom can runs over 7 figures (i know I researched the hell out of it) as to the "look" the R mentioned, the K cup looks like shit, costs a lot and they sold 3 billion of them last year.


I actually pulled over so I could respond to this. These kinds of post like the comments above really aggravate the hell out of me. You asked for packaging advice and when others with extensive knowledge of packaging try to give you help you make comments like"the K cup looks like shit and they sold billions of them"! Yes they did an no one is saying the K cup is premium. Just because a terrible design sells does not keen it is something you should copy. What you are saying is pkg design is not important as long as it sells. Also the kcup was built off an entire user proposition and IT IS BRANDED. You just have coffee you are saying is great in a can my grandfather would have buried cash in the backyard with. I am confused with the whole proposition.

I am now going to get back to my commute home.


hey i appreciate the comments and thoughts, however as with most real projects there are engineering. business and financial limitations.

Re: % of cost for packaging

Postby jriffe » March 8th, 2011, 2:36 pm


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The way to approach this is from the customer backwards. Someone earlier touched on price point, and he's pretty much correct.

Ask yourself these questions:
1) How much will this product sell for (price point)?
2) What kind of packaging is expected? i.e. wine's packaging is expected to be an elegant bottle, whereas an elegant bottle of milk will look ridiculous and cost too much.
3) After essential costs are factored in (raw materials, manufacturing costs, etc. that can't be trimmed without losing the essence of the actual product) how much cost does that allow for the packaging without raising the price?
4) How do we maximize the quality of the packaging without cutting into our profit margin goal?

It's a simple process that involves a lot of tough decisions. But if you get a good marketing campaign going, you might be able to sell the end product for more than competitors if it's "highly valued," as you say. You would also be surprised what a logistics consultant can come up with to save money for your company on things like palleting, transportation sharing, and storage. And if it's a large manufacturing operation, get an operations management consultant to take a deep look at your processes and cut out lots of manufacturing and labor waste.

I should say, I know absolutely shit about design, I just enjoy ID a whole lot. I do have a business degree, and I also thinks it's really exciting that a lot of business schools and ID schools are teaming up for this reason. Hope that helps and that I don't sound like a pompous douche.

Re: % of cost for packaging

Postby NURB » March 8th, 2011, 2:59 pm

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Nice first post jriffe. Welcome to Core.
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Re: % of cost for packaging

Postby iab » March 8th, 2011, 3:56 pm


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rkuchinsky wrote:Engineering may rule over design, but consumer perception rules over engineering.

R


Correct.

Re: % of cost for packaging

Postby jriffe » March 8th, 2011, 4:20 pm


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Totally. There's something special to even the smell and the feel of the bags, etc. in your hand when you open something like an iPod package, or a new laptop. That's something that higher end products can afford to tinker with- if you pay $150 for an iPod, what's $5 more for the perfect shock-absorbant padding? Of course, the lower the price, the less that holds.

And that's where marketing consulting really comes in. It should give you an idea of exactly what your customers want to experience and what they're willing to pay to get it based on solid research, so that you can make decisions based on numbers as well as your long term goals for your product. Like, "we have this great package that will add $5 to the end price, but we also have a world-shatteringly cool package that will add $10. " Marketing consultants should be able to give you solid numbers about which packaging is best for your bottom line, and you can make the decision. Maybe you're willing to give up profit to look cooler, which could mean bigger overall sales, or a niche in the market which means security.

It's kind of fun. Not as fun as designing the product, but that's why god made boring business minded people like me.

Re: % of cost for packaging

Postby NURB » March 8th, 2011, 4:43 pm

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@jriffe: You're obviously passionate about the business end of things. Fair warning though, you may get a little push-back on here saying Marketing can tell you what will do the best in the market.

Don't let that influence what you say. Just know it might be coming.
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Re: % of cost for packaging

Postby Boosted561 » March 8th, 2011, 4:55 pm

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zippyflounder wrote:
Scott Bennett wrote:Probably not cost effective (especially since it would have to be done on a 4 axis), but how about laser etching the can?

P.S. Does the can have a lining that burns off or offgasses at 500 degrees?
nope the inside is raw steel just like the outside.


Why do you need to get to 500 degrees when brewing temps are supposed to be at 195-205 degrees? Also, many food based products have a sprayed on coating on the inside of the can. If not, you'd have many off flavor contamination components

Re: % of cost for packaging

Postby NURB » March 8th, 2011, 4:59 pm

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He's roasting beans, then grinding, then brewing. Roasting temps are at or above 500.
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Re: % of cost for packaging

Postby jriffe » March 8th, 2011, 5:38 pm


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NURB wrote:@jriffe: You're obviously passionate about the business end of things. Fair warning though, you may get a little push-back on here saying Marketing can tell you what will do the best in the market.

Don't let that influence what you say. Just know it might be coming.


Yeah, business and design people dont always get along. I do not, however, think designers should compromise on their instincts. If you think one thing will work better than another, despite what marketers say, you have to trust your instincts. It's just that with hard numbers (as this topic seemed to deal with, ie- percentages, etc), sometimes marketing people can make the decision seem clearer. But marketing people (just like sales people) will act like you're stupid for not doing exactly what they say, and designers should never give in to that.

Have fun, creative people, I'm going to ogle at chairs that look like clouds or something.

Re: % of cost for packaging

Postby NURB » March 8th, 2011, 5:47 pm

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Re: % of cost for packaging

Postby zippyflounder » March 8th, 2011, 7:32 pm


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jriffe wrote:
NURB wrote:@jriffe: You're obviously passionate about the business end of things. Fair warning though, you may get a little push-back on here saying Marketing can tell you what will do the best in the market.

Don't let that influence what you say. Just know it might be coming.


Yeah, business and design people dont always get along. I do not, however, think designers should compromise on their instincts. If you think one thing will work better than another, despite what marketers say, you have to trust your instincts. It's just that with hard numbers (as this topic seemed to deal with, ie- percentages, etc), sometimes marketing people can make the decision seem clearer. But marketing people (just like sales people) will act like you're stupid for not doing exactly what they say, and designers should never give in to that.

Have fun, creative people, I'm going to ogle at chairs that look like clouds or something.
remember a product must first and foremost WORK, if not its art....different world altogether.

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