One designer's review of the Local Motors Rally Fighter.

I shouldn’t have said anything.

All good points above. Interesting argument between an educated opinion versus a popular opinion:

“Will Crowd-Sourcing produce the next ‘Raging Bull’ or the next ‘Batman and Robin’? - Discuss”

It does look striking and it is meant to be a rally kit car, so I’d expect to be styled more like a Tamiya RC than a Corolla. It will be interesting if they ever make a 4 door sedan or a hatchback, rather than a boy-racer.

Great topic Mike! First off I agree and disagree with a lot of what has been said so far regarding the Rally Fighter. It is my understanding that the the whole concept behind ‘Local Motors’ is a community of designers, engineers, and builders creating futuristic concepts for purchase. That’s good and all but I can see some issues with that.

As a designer at Ford I worked on many different programs from interiors to exteriors and let me tell you when it comes to delivering a design to market there are a lot of mock-ups created to make sure everything is spot on for surface delivery. During the development process we create countless models in clay (full size) to make sure that all the surfaces and proportions are correct. Also the use of dynock on the clay and reviewing that buck in the courtyard lets us evaluate the design in an natural environment. This process allows us (designers) to see what’s working and what’s not working either from an DNA standpoint to a visual pleasing object.

Sangho Kim has a great talent but that talent has to be refined and honed in. As we developed our designs we had numerous chiefs and directors showing us our errors and showing us what works and what doesn’t. I’ve had J Mays pull me aside and explain to me that what I was trying to create wasn’t going to work. His guidance then help me become the designer I am today. Anyone can come up with a great sketch but translating that idea or vision to 3D is not always the easiest thing. I don’t see Local Motors following this process because it is expensive and time consuming.

In the end I think it’s a great concept but I believe if they had to to it all over again and develop it with the appropriate eyes that they final design would be a lot more refined.

That’s my 2 cents…

Not at all man, this is good conversation. Very sticky subjective stuff. That is why I titled it “One Designer’s Opinion”. It is important to hash this stuff out, and to bring the discussion about design back to designers. We are doers by nature, this place is a platform for us to talk things over, consult with each other, and raise the bar for each other.

Great perspective John.

Michael, thanks for the props and honest critique. I didn’t see this thread until today when it popped up in my Google alerts - a late response is better than never, I suppose!

You’ve a great community for open design discussion here. Since you all know we’re really building cars, and we’re really doing it in an open co-creative way, I hope you’ll join us for the next vehicle dev. The choice of next LM vehicle has not yet been made, but we expect each outcome to be better than the last. This co-creative process is new, and while we are very proud of the Rally Fighter and the (typically) head-turning high-fiving response we get from folks, we know this is our first shot out of the barrel.

Since you care enough to critique, do it early and post on local-motors.com so we can make the cars even better. It’s strange to think the Rally Fighter would have turned out differently if you all had joined the development process.

Design Detroit, good thoughts here. Sangho is a uniquely talented individual with some solid experience under his belt. He is not the soul designer, though he is the original designer of the Rally Fighter. Like any studio we work in a team. While Sangho’s creative inspiration and design rooted this concept he worked with a large community along with a small group of super talented engineers. We never set out to design a car that everyone would want to buy - quite the opposite. We set out to design and build a car for a specific group of people, many of which joined us for the development. Much of the design was lead by engineering considerations.

Cyberdemon, the word crowdsource has earned a bad reputation. We opt for the word “co-create” as it’s more true to what we’re doing - designing and building something together. We do not design by committee, but with a bi-modal intelligence from community and company. Community keeps us on the track of their desires with honest critique and guidance. Company is responsible for safety, cost, and accessibility. Together, we’re co-creating a new type of car company. Sangho earned $20,000 -Raphael Laurent who designed the side vent, Mihai Panaitescu who designed the interior, and Filip Tejszerski who designed the RF Lightbar also earned cash. Nobody participated for the money - though the idea of having a car on the road with their names on it, that was incentive.

Michael, note we’re not trying to re-invent kit cars. We’re setting a course to improve the way cars are designed and brought to market. This open collaborative process is the best way for us to deliver cars our customers really want. We’ll continue to improve the process and the cars, and hope you’ll join us for future rounds.

Cheers all - happy to answer any questions.

Ariel

aferreira@local-motors.com

p.s. michael - you’re in New England, and you didn’t come by to see the Rally Fighter?

Ariel_

Thanks for the response. I’m impressed with how LM has taken this discussion in stride.

When I moved here about 2 years ago, I emailed someone at Local Motors about visiting the facility… never heard back. Totally understand how a single email could be lost in the the deluge of emails you guys get.

This is a very strong community, we are all super comfortable sharing our opinions as many of us have been on here for 5+ years, and moving to another site that only talks about one thing feels a little limiting in comparison. We would love to see you guys on here more though. In fact, some pretty high profile international manufacturing companies are working with the community here by paying selected contributors to work on projects. More on that in the coming weeks people… hang in there…

I’m sorry for the kit car comparison, I know it is a loaded term. What I meant is that a lot of the original kit car companies were trying to change the way cars were made, when kit cars were original vehicles in the 70’s. That was before they became Ferrari-Fieros.

I’d love to participate, and I think you actually emailed me when LM first started up based on my cardesignnews.com portfolio, but honestly, I’m flush with paying work and on a principal level, I just don’t feel right contributing a design for free. The car isn’t free.

What about a car time share? You design something you get to borrow the car for a week. :smiley: I’m sure that would have made all the snow we’ve gotten a lot more enjoyable on the commute.

I remember! And I did respond - my response bounced. Not sure why. I had your website url, so I should’ve reached out to you there. I just re-emailed you and forwarded the bounce response to regain a little credibility :slight_smile: If you don’t get it we’ll just have to continue communicating here - or you can call/email me.

That’s awesome. I appreciate the invite and will take you up on it.

Noted, understood and it’s cool.

Certainly understandable and fair. The car is not free. It would be much, much easier for us to hire the best designers to design Local Motors cars -but then we would be operating the same way traditional manufacturers and design studios have been operating for ages. We choose to do differently for reasons you’re aware of. It’s the fun of the process, collaboration and recognition that cause any person, designer or not, to join Local Motors. If you’re in it for the money, you will likely be disappointed. But for a few who earn it, there is a boatload of recognition and a good prize to work toward.

Sangho will tell you the money was a far second to seeing his design on the road.

Thanks for the speedy response! You’re still welcome to visit, though the Rally Fighter will not be back in Wareham. Best bet to see it now is at SXSW in Austin next month, or in Phoenix thereafter.

Ariel

aferreira@local-motors.com

I think it was a good thing to do. Yo is a sharp designer, but not the only good voice of design out there… and from a sideline pov, I enjoy hearing you guys hash out the auto detailing

About the Local Motors rally car, I thought it was a pretty exciting vehicle when I first saw it but agree the details aren’t completely working together, as illustrated throughout. For a smaller company doing low volume vehicles though, I think it’s turning out great and is a hell of a lot better an aesthetic than Jr and the OC Chopper type work custom cars. The fighter would turn heads, not roll eyes… no offense to anyone that likes that stuff

Agreed, it’s important to discuss these things.

Ariel, not sure if you have an old address maybe? You can reach me at md@michaelditullo.com

I want to talk about monetary compensation a bit more, just to say my peace, speaking on behalf of a profession that always has to defend its value even though the result of our work is exactly what tends to sell one product over anther. As designers, I’d hazard to say that just about none of us got in it for the money. Wrong profession for that… but it is a profession, and one that has value, and we measure value in money. I love my doctor. Great guy, really spends time, cares, didn’t get into medicine for the money (when many did)… but he still gets paid for his time.

Most of us take pride in our work, but you can’t eat pride. I’m trying hard in this not to step on toes here, but design has value, and the real value of design is a message we are very passionate about.

Dang yo! Well said! I wish I’d had you as a professor, instead of Papanek …

To whoever mentioned the X6. Yeah. And I hate to be down on such an innovative company, but I think both of them are retarded. Two door slinky coupes are great on low, high horsepower cars that huge the road. Off road vehicles are typically chunky, masculine, and brutish. There is a reason that these two types of things don’t really cross pollenate, because they are suited to two completely differnet purposes. I mean… .the X6 for example. It seats fewer people than a regular SUV, offers no performance benefits, the slight improvement in aero doesn’t really matter, etc yet it costs MORE than something more practical. Why? I just find the idea of such a thing hilarious, and sad. It reminds me of the Simpson’s Homer-car. Yeah! I want a sports car! Yeah ! “Do you want it to offroad?” “Yeah, I want that too! I want that and some side pipes! Yeah! And some aluminum strips! Yeah! YEAH! And maybe some huge wheels! yeah ! And some graphics! yeah! And two types of paint and surface treatments YEAH YEAH YEAH YEAH!!!” It just reminds me of what a caffiene-addled child with ADD would say, if he were designing a car.

See: http://simpsons.wikia.com/wiki/"The_Homer"

Yeah, it turns heads, but not in a great way, like when I see an Aston Martin, or a GT40. It’s just visually screaming at the top of its lungs, without having anything to actually say. Basically…

Also… for LM… I guess I was hoping for something actually relevant. You guys built a toy for rich people. Lots of companies already do that. What I was hoping for, when you were first starting, was something fresh. A RWD car with an efficient 4 cylinder, like a modern remake of the AE-86 Corolla, or something along those lines. Today everything is either boring, or macho and expensive. The Hyundai genesis coupe is the first move of a change in direction… which I am welcoming. But it’s still too much. I think something similar to the Dodge Razor concept would be an EXCELLENT Local Motors next move. Something priced under 20 grand, simple, designed with off the shelf parts, EASY TO WORK ON, easy to repair, efficient, and basic. Not some ridiculous off-road toy for people who think more of everything is better.

Unfortunately… I don’t see this happening with your current business setup. Currently (and correct me if I’m wrong), you have online voting for your designs, and the direction of your company. I can’t see anything relevant working with that. It seems like it’s always going to be the most outrageous, ostentatious design that gets the most votes, because it is so ridiculous. And that, is too bad, becuase local motors will always be just another “expensive toy” company, instead of a company that I’d ever purchase a product from. Again, I really want you to succeed, and provide an ALTERNATIVE to the big 3 in detroit, but right now you’re just providing an alternative to Polaris, Bombardier, and other “recreational vehicles”.

I must be the only person who actually likes the X6 in the world…

Good points in there Cash… particularly regarding online voting skewing the direction of the company to the most ridiculous answers. But, to their defense it doesn’t seem like the set out to make the next VW “People’s Car”. They did make an expensive toy, but aren’t ALL cars simply expensive toys? We’re put on this earth with an easy way to travel (our feet), so you could argue that any form of transportation you have to purchase or pay for in some way is an expensive toy. You’ve got 2 perfectly good feet after all.

I didn’t want another people’s car. We already have the civic, corolla, etc. I was hoping with all the engineers, designers, talent, and passion for automobiles, they’d produce a car FOR ENTHUSIASTS, BY ENTHUSIASTS. A person who buys a $50k+ anything isn’t really an enthusiast, because with that kind of money I doubt they do much of their own work. Something like an old 240 in modern form would be perfect. Sorry if I wasn’t clear about that in my previous post.

Wonderful - we’d love to have you over! I am available on Skype/phone/email - whatever you like. I’ll drop you a line so we can connect.

It’s important to note that when designers enter the competition or checkup critique process, Local Motors does NOT own their work. And we don’t want to. We own the work ONLY when we purchase it.

This sets us apart from other competitions, and many crowdsourcing companies.

Talk to you soon,

Ariel

aferreira@Local-Motors.com

I too like the X6. Raw and unpractical, love it. But it appeals to many peoples testosterone side. That is one reason why I basically like the Rally Fighter. Unforgiving and unapologetic. Im still a petrol head, but I’m trying to wean myself off.

As far as the voting side of Local Motors, there is a part of the voting that goes to ‘how producible’ is the design. That automatically cuts out a lot of the most outrageous designs.

but that doesn’t address the fact that you have scores of people who are doing work for you that don’t get paid. Whether you use that work is not relevant to the time (which = money) that people have put into it.

I am completely torn when I see something like LM. I love its spirit and I do think it presents an interesting alternative to giant global companies all racing towards the bottom.

On the other hand, I hate the idea of my future being nothing but Spec work.

Also, of course the designer is amped about seeing his work on the road, he is/was still in school, but will he feel that way long term and as viable career? dunno.

I like the X6 too. The thing is so mean running down the road.

Have to agree with Yo’s points regarding design and paying designers.

I’m unsure of how something with that much wheel gap and ground clearance can look mean to you. It looks dorky, poserish, and unpurposeful, from my perspective. Low= fast, mean, aggressive. Jacked up = tipsy, dorky looking.