Flame - BS Award for triathlon bike handlebars???

It would appear almost everyone panning this design, has some kind of familiarity with cycling and TT bikes in general.

CG, on the other hand, just made the point that we were all hoping to avoid… from an outside view, this does seem like a great execution of an idea, eliminate the need for 2 sets of bars.

This doesn’t make me like the product at all, in fact I’d be very afraid to ride these bars, and yes my first thought was Rasmussen’s TDF TT in 05 to lose the yellow jersey making way for Mellow Johnny’s 6th tour victory of not getting caught doping.

must seamlessly and safely transition between a “control” position during the navigation of tight turns and steep terrain to an “aero” position during long, flat stretches of a course

Some how I missed that reading the brief.

I would still contend that to an outsider who has no idea about riding a TT bike, this would seem like a very plausible design.

Real tri bars are one piece

lets face it this is a product that just isnt needed. for the small amount of time it would be beneficial,the same if not more amount of time is spent faffingwith different setting. bikes are simple for a reason less to go wrong and thats what counts in any kind of racing.

I say do it, and then watch the responses from a safe distance…you think we’re critical :unamused:

are you Greg LeMond in disguise?

Let’s hope the $2000 second prize will be used for prototyping the idea in physical form. $1000 for prototype, $500 for used triathlon bike, $500 for medical insurance deductible.

I think you’re all judging the execution and not the idea.
I’ll throw out some different executions:

  1. When transitioning to the aero-bars, twist the grip to retract the “wing bars” (or perhaps the natural forward pressure on the bars does this automatically.) Release the forward pressure (or flip a cam-lock) and the bars spring back.

  2. The rider has ergonomic forearm-length bars attached to a pivot at their wrist. The other pivot is at the stem. From the aero position, the rider releases a lock in the palm and pulls back and out, where the bars lock into the standard position.

Look at these TT bars:

…It isn’t hard to imagine how the aero bars could transform into the standard position with some simple mechanics.

Yep, definitely judging the execution. The idea might be great, which I’ll sum up as: “remove outboard hand positions when not in use for aerodynamic benefit”. In this case it is appropriate to judge the execution, because otherwise we’re left with ideas, not designs.

In my mind(and experience), the grips that your hands are on should never move. So, you’re #1 is a good one, because the moveable grips lock into place before you put your hands there.

A slightly different solution would be to modify the front-end geometry of the bike, so that it is more stable when on the aerobars and braking or under power, and eliminate the need for the outboard hand position.

Probably wouldn’t work for climbing, but could work wonders for stability under braking and in corners. Tri bikes don’t need twitchy handling, they need stability with more of a front-weighted bias than most road racing bikes. The geometry needed to build a stable bike that can handle a fairly heavy load at the handle bars is known(and that tracks straigh under a tired rider), but those bikes aren’t meant for triathlons(porteurs and randonneurs). I don’t think any tri-bike manufacturers have made any radical geomety changes in quite a while, yet this is one of the underlying problems that is trying to be solved here, manifest in the bikes feeling unstable when braking from the aerobars.

No, its the idea that is flawed.

Walk through the entire scenario, including the body leaning, turning of the wheel, and judging an apex involved in making a corner at speed. Combine that with the added complication of pivoting elements. There is no way that this will be 1) faster or 2) less dangerous than the existing setup.

Its not dependent on mechanism, springing bars, or cams. The inherent problem is in stability and dynamics of the turn.

Look: In your #1 scenario, where are your hands, when you retract or spring-back the grips? In the air, or on the grips? If they are on the grips, you are now riding an unstable, dynamically changing bicycle, at time-trial speeds. If the hands are in the air, you are flipping switches, watching the bars move, and waiting until they lock into place before getting back into position. Plus you are still transitioning, right?

Go build one and try it. Send Dyson the hospital bill.


manifest in the bikes feeling unstable when braking from the aerobars.

That’s why the brake levers are on the outriggers, normally.

you are correct as teh idea is sound if you are only adjusting the distance your fore arm and shoulders move to put you in a more upright position to give you better balance turning and braking.

Problem is as Slippyfish points out, maneuverability is dynamic. just adjusting the bars does not adjust the other factors necessary to make the bike more efficient at what its supposed to do which is to efficiently transfer power from rider to road thru back wheel

TT bikes have the riders Center of gravity well forward and toward fornt end of the frame. This is not only due to the aerodynamic efficency of that position but to maximize teh extension of the femur in relation to the hips, while in a speed tuck, to drive the most efficient cadence to generate watts to drive the back wheel.

lemme 'splain…you can just drop into a tuck and get great wind resistance w/o aerobars: just grab the stem and tuck your elbows to yer ribs. Problem is in that position you cannot pedal efficiently, you tire quickly and usually crash because you are using the wrong weak muscles to hold you there. So you either lean forward and raise your hips up putting your chin on teh bars or you push youself back and down to get a better extension so your cadence is most efficient and yer ass rubbs on teh top of the tire. SO ideally you extend your arms forward in order to raise yer hips and get an extremely aerodynamic position while pedaling an effective efficient cadence without tiring yourself out.

Now when you have to turn and or brake, if your weight and head and arms are too far forward you’re going to high side it and end up ass over tea kettle. So you transfer your weight back to the rear of teh frame to open up your body to balance at the lower speed. To do this, you must slide your body backwards and open up your posture WITHOUT interrupting you cadence or upsetting the balance of the bike. You do this naturally and instinctively removin gand palcing one hand at a time, strong balance side first, in a two step motion, not in a perfect opening slide. With a sliding hinge it would it unnartural and un-instinctual with your weight and balance center all front like that. Your body and inner ear would go goofy quickly trying tio figure out whic end was up…

The crucial factor here is that a TT bikes geometry head angle is >73º and it has a shorter TT length, making it even more unstable and squirrelier in turns and braking than a road bike but more efficient in power transfer when pedaling in a tuck. Therefore the dynamic balance and shifting of weight becomes a full body experience and even more crucial than on a road bike. which is often why you will always see a tri geek doing whatever they can to avoid curves, riding straight all the time and sucking on yer rear wheel when they should be pulling you…b*stards.

Just changing the bars you do nothing to alter where your balance is, forward or backward.

An example of an effective solution to the “problem” would be to either link the seat and bars together somehow so that the effective Top tube length changes when the bars change it or making a virtual head angle change at the same time as teh bars change to ensure a smooth transition of weight and balance without losing wattage…'cause when it comes down to it the bottom line in Time Trialing is the efficient transfer of raw power from the rider onto that back wheel.

and Im done

I agree with slippy fish: We need to prototype this. It’s too bad that we don’t know where this idea has gone since the contest. I still think it is worthy of an award even if it doesn’t work. At least the designer will have learned something.

However, ideally, they should have tested an ugly prototype, then designed an award winning presentation and not the other way around. In the real world, a client would be pretty upset that you blew $20k-30k and then found out your design was crap rather than spending $500 and finding out your concept doesn’t work.

oh the wonders of cad, rino, etc…beautiful picutes of unworkable designer thingies.

You can find more info on the project here:
http://davebags.com/splitstream

and some good discussions here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/Slowtwitch_Forums_C1/Triathlon_Forum_F1/Transforming_aerobar_P1882714/

and here:

-DaveB

Interesting thread on Slowtwitch. The people posting on Slowtwitch are much more open to exploring ideas, than I thought. Thinking about it more, triathletes are prone to trying new technologies - Softride beam bikes, hubless front wheels (the rider lasted only 10 miles on the Kona coast I think), bottles behind the rider…

I will eat a portion of crow and apologize for making a rush judgement of the designer, especially in the product conception and prototyping phase. :blush:

Slowtwitch triathlete postings aside, I still think its a solution in search of a problem, as the hand switch, balance and stability seem easier with the two sets of bars. Aerodynamic claims are impossible to make without time in a wind tunnel. And it would be interesting to see a video where the bars shift while the rider is leaned over in a downhill, instead of riding down a straight road.

Wow, love the video! I’m sold!

If/When it is prototyped, or produced, I would say there cannot be any “play” in the handle bars. I’m probably characterized as a casual rider, but my handlebars have been working loose lately and it drives me up a wall! I want those to be rock solid.

I hereby eat my words. Nice video, dave! Great to see a prototype in action.

This has nothing to do with your design, but I’m still puzzled at the lack of innovation in geometry as it affects handling. If the bike is too unstable to use the brakes or corner while on the aerobars, it seems the solution is not an alternate hand position, but changing the head angle and fork offset to increase stability, no?

At the end of the day, this design is just another flavor of bar on the market (IF IT GETS to MARKET).

How is this product different?? Bottom line, it will need some data to verify the product is more aero than an alternative. Show me the wind tunnel numbers.

It would not take $30 K to verify a shape is more aero that competitor B over a typical Racing distance - Ironman for example.

Ouch. Dang. I officially eat my words.

Congrats to you Dave, I’m glad to see you actually made a working prototype. I still remain skeptical, but it does look very innovative. I hope the Tri competition governing body approves this for use.

Here’s the deal with Tri-Geeks… they’ll spend their money on any gimmick that might make them either go faster, or get through transitions faster. Make this puppy out of carbon, paint it to match some Cervelo’s, and you’ve got yourself a winner.

This has nothing to do with your design, but I’m still puzzled at the lack of innovation in geometry as it affects handling. If the bike is too unstable to use the brakes or corner while on the aerobars, it seems the solution is not an alternate hand position, but changing the head angle and fork offset to increase stability, no?

Of course this would work, but do a bit of background research on tri/TT bikes and you’ll find they’re pushed forward for good reason. You want to be using all the same muscles for each event, and if you have a laid back seat tube, your legs are in front of you, rather than up and down. This makes your transition to run very uncomfortable for the first few miles, until your legs get back to where they need to be.