How do you know when something is over-designed?

Ya. I hear you.

But with a vocal opposing side at this time, the outcome will be pounding sand. Frustrating.

Ed Begley Jr. is a nut. Kim K. is hot.

#makemerkagreatagain

Jon: Maybe it’s dignity, I think it scales with income though. Go through poor neighborhoods and you see some luxury cars. Often a few years old, but meticulously taken care of. It’s the most expensive thing that person feels they will ever purchase, so of course they are proud. I think homes are the same thing for those middle class suburbinites in their McMansions. Go up to Kardashian level and you get gold plated Bugattis and Gulf Streams.

I think another thing is as designers we’re looking at all this stuff a little different. I remember Charles Eames saying that the most beautiful thing to him was a blank sheet of paper because it contains infinite possibilities. I know I look a gold plated Ferrari the same way. That could have been water wells for 100 people in sub-saharan Africa who are walking 10 miles a day for fresh water, but it’s glitter for a d*bag in South Beach. He might be totally aware of the problems of water in Africa and really care about it, but he doesn’t see that Ferrari as a potential water well. We are makers, so we do.

Another take: I took an accounting class a couple years ago and afterwards, I started thinking about my whole life as assets, liabilities and equity. I found myself thinking that only the land where my house is worth anything and the house is worthless because it’s fully depreciated. That was after one semester. Imagine if it was my career. It all effects our world view.

Let’s not confuse over manufacturing with over designing. The night markets, factory outlets, street vendors and discount stores that attract the effluence of the manufacturing sector sans design is what many have issue with. The economic term is called ‘dumping’ and is the result of manufacturers lowering their prices below their production costs and market retail in order to get rid of excess inventory in a foreign market. This kind of activity is illegal but difficult to prosecute.

Many here in this discussion have been in the game long enough to know how and why manufacturers are the cause for what we are now beginning to see in society. Most of the garishly over designed stuff we see has not even been touched by designers, but rather manufacturers who want to increase their volumes to stay ahead of: inflation, depreciation and idle capacity in order to eek out a profit. Design by manufacturer is what we are now seeing on Amazon.com and the Bauhaus is what you see in a history museum.

And lets not confuse design or even over design with modifying an existing design for the after market. Gold plated Lambos are an after market flourish, not a core design/development innovation. Manufactures of super cars are happy to take a custom order from Dubai in order to pay for the next production innovation that will be standard in next years model. Those Saudi millennials are pawns in a much larger economic game who have no clue about how they are impacting globalization. Their schools and education levels do not include such understanding and awareness of how they are impacting the global environment.

If you feel uncomfortable designing ‘garbage’ then stop designing garbage, and move onto something that is more sensible. If you find yourself at the top of the materialism food chain, do not blame those who are at a lower level for your disdain of what makes them feel happy. Ply your skills in a market that does not exist yet and that needs all of the design that it can get.

I think we can’t say over designed. Actually, designs should be done according to the event and atmosphere. Kids product has to be over designed to attract them. Everyone has different tastes.

This struck a chord with me. Today I had the same sales person do the following:

  1. He owns a Nespresso coffee machine which I have told him the inventor regrets inventing; so when I told him that I had read an ABC news (Australian non-commercial news similar to PBS) article that stated that the former CEO of Nespresso said that everyone needs to stop using these machines now, he scoffed at me and suggested that I’m taking it too seriously and why do I get so worked up.

  2. He asked me if we can make an ottoman with a 5-star base because “the client can’t be bothered lifting them when they want to move them”. So they want a 5-star base which is cast in aluminium, chrome plated and then has 5 castors which are injection moulded with machined metal threads etc… because they can’t be bothered. Something that is designed to be put on a task chair that is used for 8+ hours a day.

As designers sometimes we need to say no. I often try to beat these stupid ideas out of clients heads via the salesperson by suggesting the ridiculous cost involved in their wasteful and lazy “design” that they have come up with.

My favourite is when I hear clients say they designed a chair because they chose the fabric or added some stupid USB charger that they saw in a catalogue to a desktop. Wow, you’re a design genius!

Aaron: Having hired some people now has opened my eyes to all the garbage that designers are actually working on! I’ve seen some lighting portfolios that have amazing renderings of the most blandly over the top chandaliers I’ve ever seen. They only look tossed together, but some designer actually burned a week making it look tossed together.

I’ve been a little more discouraged lately because of the trend that Jon and you discuss. However, I think it will come around. Civilization is going through a huge change right now and we need things to shake out. Until then, people are going to over value the imitation of past success (McMansions and gold Ferraris).

Here’s your biggest problem, a preacher can give a better sermon.

Sure, that is blunt, but no one likes to be told how to live their lives. Wasteful. Unsustainable. Those are heady claims being thrown around this thread. And it is probably true in some cases. Gold is my favorite example. Almost devoid of any intrinsic value, it’s actual value was determined in the bronze age along other great ideas like human sacrifice, slavery and worshiping Thor. (OK, Thor is cool, but the god of thunder, really? ) The resources needed to get a few ounces out of the dirt is staggering.

But back to claims of unsustainable. Hard to actually prove. Humans hit peak oil 200+ years ago. And by oil, I mean whale oil. We changed, moved on. Sure, now we certainly can’t sustain crude oil production, it will run out at some point. But as history has always shown, humans can figure it out and move on. What if some smart gal figures out fusion? A lot of hand wringing will be wasted.

Can anyone here give me a simple number? Do I live first world or do I have to live like a Bangledeshy? Is the electricity I’m using to type this sustainable or not? And if you want me to be really fatalistic, if humans go the way of dinosaurs, why does that matter?

And now I have officially ruined the thread. :sunglasses:

Touche…but I do have to say that they are all two sides of the same coin. The Circle of Product Life, so to speak.

So, where is the distinction between over-designed, over-engineered, over-marketed?

Are they all a sub-category of “over-thinking”…kinda like I’ve been doing lately? :confused:

Working on it. Stay tuned.

I love this thread. great discussion. I think mainly we have a lot of creative ways of agreeing with each other, so creative that is seems like disagreeing. :slight_smile:

I really liked the comparison between the Dieter Rams coffee finger and the also simple but terrible popcorn maker… was that this thread or the minimalist one? The other thing about what designers often deem and the most optical design, the “as little design as possible” aesthetic, is that just like Baroque, or Rococo, it has become a style, and a style associated with status. Furniture that was designed to be easily mass produced from the Eames and the Bauhaus, designed for regular people to have good products, now command a huge premium as they have become status symbols. While we my find the aesthetic more visually pleasing and harmonious, is that really any better than some golden gilt chair bought for the same reason of status?

I struggle with these things a lot. I’ve had the opportunity to design some pretty high performance, high quality product. When I investigate the people that buy these things, in some cases they have bought them for status not performance. It induces a cringe… the product still has integrity, it still performs, it still is “designed well” by my definition, but it is not being used as intended and that is the purchaser’s right. I feel like we can drive our selves crazy with cyclical thinking here, or embrace that we got the opportunity to create something and that consumers afforded us that opportunity even if the integrity of the product is under appreciated.

That’s exactly how I feel. Even though, I’m usually designing the cheap stuff hehe;)

Yo: The Braun coffee grinder was in this thread.

Here is another image that has haunted me lately and really speaks to alot of the concerns of the thread:

That’s one of the Kardashian’s offices and the guy is their (undoubtedly high priced) interior designer. What I love is that the designer has chosen these ornate bookcases, chandaliers, table lamps and desk (you can see it in other pictures). But what is smack dab in the middle? Braun-ish, Bauhaus-ish aluminum clad, minimalist iMac.

I wish I could make a conclusion, but I just stare at this and have no idea what to make of it from a micro or macro level.

Who is that Clay Akin?

Jeff Andrews. I told you, I’m fascinated by this photo.

My opinion is that this Jeff Andrews guy has tapped into what I would call the “all money no taste” aesthetic.

Emulating millionaires of past, who received gifts and went on ridiculous shopping binges because they didn’t know what to spend their money on so they would just buy random shit that looked opulent.

Surrounded by yes-persons who never questioned their taste or whether they had too much stuff in one room. Fill every surface with vases, sculptures and lamps. No, 10 vases on the mantle isn’t excessive; it’s expressive.

The help will dust it all for you. That’s what you pay them for darling. Tee hee. We’re so naughty. Let’s have a f%#@ing sparkling Pino because it’s lunch time and we deserve it.

I was just looking at a Restoration Hardware catalog and was wondering what you guys would think of this. More and more, I find myself attracted to this aesthetic, but only when the furniture is actually well built. Have I lost my taste?

I think a person’s aesthetic sensibilities is directly derived from their unique experiences.

Comparison of those unique experiences is a pointless endeavor.

As the saying goes, it takes all types.

To each there own, it is still tastefully done. That desk will look great with an iMac on it :slight_smile:

Personally I’m fine with furniture like this when it is actually vintage. If it was a colonial desk from the 1800’s, awesome, amazing. A modern repop doesn’t do it for me.

Now, your next question should be: “hey Michael, did’t you buy some Eames chairs and aren’t those essentially Herman Miller made repos’s?” yes… like all humans I’m irrational and inconsistent and bend my own rules when convenient. Lately I’ve been trying to buy actual mid century pieces or new designs that are just clean and simple, but I do have a few mid century reproductions. Realities of budget and availability.

I unfortunately fell into the design and make your own furniture trap. I recommend, don’t do it.

But good furniture ain’t cheap.

I have a friend that tries to convince me that I should desire originals over reprod.s, but I find it hard.

  1. In 1860 there were only 1 billion people or 1/7 the population of today. Therefore, there is at least 1/7th the furniture made then as is today, and probably even less than that considering the improvements in logistics, marketing and manufacturing. If the piece is desirable, there is no way we would have enough originals to meet demand.

  2. Especially with furniture, I place a higher value on craft than originality. I would rather a super well made piece than an original, but poorly made piece. I won’t point out anything in particular, but there is a lot of examples of poorly made design classics.

  3. Is a Victorian piece any less relevant today than a mid-century piece? One is 150-160 years old, the other is a young 50-60 years old.

No one wants to talk me out of this?

To each there own, it is still tastefully done. That desk will look great with an iMac on it > :slight_smile:

I would definitely use a Mac Book and keep it in the drawer when not in use.

I found this in my apartment’s recycling area the other day. Somebody moved out, and just left it for the garbage man. The sticky note on it says, “from apt 202, this is free, please take it if you like.”

It is a well constructed replica of an Eames La Chaise. I am planning to display it in the elevator foyer of the design school I teach at to illustrate what unsustainable design looks and feels like to my design students. Definitely over designed…

To me, I can tell something is over-designed when my brain is frustrated by it and wants to remove at least one if not several elements to achieve the perfect balance of interest and economy. Usually cars, but

I would have to use one to judge. From the way it looks, it seems like you can sit upright or sideways, and the hole helps lighten it visually and probably is a good handle. I have sat in other Eames chairs that were very comfortable. What was your experience using it? Personally I don’t think it is overdesigned just from looking at it.

I do think that things can be a bit richer than Deiter Rams’ approach and still achieve this. This is what Apple has done so well, but many others do it well too.