German cars

Why all the love for german cars? I don’t get it at all. Sure they are fast, and presumably well-built, but taken as a group they look like hell, excepting a couple marginally decent-looking machines.

You are correct.

You don’t get it.

Ha! +1

+2

…Though personally I think older german cars are mostly better than some of the new, the new stuff is pretty solid and I think far above anything else out there. What would you think is better? US Cars? Japanese? Of course not comparing to Italian supercars, though even those honestly are not to my taste at all.

R

I think putting “German cars” into one category is difficult. I’d be hard pressed to find all that much in common between a VW Jetta and a Porsche 911 or Cayman. And then there are all the brands, do you consider Mini, Rolls Royce, Bentley, Lamborghini, SEAT as German?

For me, there are just not that many cars I would consider buying. My list is mainly German, but not because they are German, most are also used:

Another 2001-2008 first gen TT (I’d go coupe this time, still Quattro with HO motor of course)
A first gen BMW Z4 coupe
Porsche Cayman
Nissan 370z
Used Nissan 350z
Possibly an Alfa Romeo if they ever came to the US!

A lot of Japanese and American cars are great, I just can’t see myself in one. The closest might be the Cadillac CTS coupe, but maybe a touch to big. Maybe a first generation Infinity G35 coupe. Other than that my list goes vintage…

What are you driving? What attracted you to it?

Taken as a group they look like hell? Which group?
There’s so much difference between the brands…

And most of them are awesome.

I was just thinking the same thing this morning. I heard someone on a podcast raving about the Porsche Panemeraiciaaj whatchamacallit. It’s ugly outside and inside, but the guy described the interior as “like a jet fighter cockpit”.

When I think of a cockpit, I think of something stripped down. A plane requires a lot of gauges and switches because a plane is really hard to fly (compared to a car). Let’s look at a few buttons from the Panemaia;aira whatchamacallit (what happened to numbers for names too Porsche?!?!):

Sport
Sport +
an icon of a strut
an icon of arrows over the rear of a car
an icon of something completely incomprehensible
A off

WTF is all that? Can’t the car just be sporty instead of having buttons for that? I want to pay $120,000 for a car so I don’t have to tweak it while driving. But, apparently, that is just me.

Every time I think of replacing my POS 2002 Ford Focus, I run into this problem. I want a stripped down model with nothing in it, but a sunroof. Every car make wants to give me rain sensing this, park assist, sport buttons, idrive, whatever. I don’t want it!!! Argh!

Thinking of Saab again though, the night panel button was pretty cool.

I grew up in aircooled VWs, So I guess that makes me biased. We drove them not necessarily because they were great machines, which they are, but because they were affordable to buy, drive and repair. Still are.

When I got old enough to drive, my Pa gave me his 1974 Karmann Ghia 'vert. So I had to learn to work on it. The more I researched the car(s) The more fascinated I became with the design decisions that were made and how long the basic design lasted. Of course I then started learning about the Porsche tie-in. The more I learned about these cars the more I loved them.

Fast forward about a decade. I never really got into researching BMW, and always thought of BMW drivers as being pretentious pricks who cared a little too much about their image (which is largely still true). Then about three years ago my Mom got a 325i wagon. Every time I was around that thing my eyeballs popped out of my head. I was sold. Earlier this year my wife (who drives a rock solid '98 Jetta) and I were in the market for a second car. We needed something from the '90s, reliable, safe… not lame… there happened to be a well preserved '90 325is just down the road for sale. It was a no-brainer.

A misconception a lot of people have is that these “more expensive” German cars are more difficult to work on. Just the opposite, at least until recently. My comparison is that they are like the inside of a MacPro. Everything seemingly comes in and out with a couple little screws or bolts. I’ve never replaced a modern exhaust in my life. Did the BMWs in a couple hours in my driveway. 4 bolts. Routine maintenance on things like light bulbs, to more advanced things like replacing brake light switches and automatic transmission/power steering lines/reservoir and sensors is dead easy.

I have worked in light auto repair jobs, working on mainly American and Japanese cars. My parents and grandparents have owned Buicks, Cadillacs, Pontiacs, Kias, nothing comes close. And not just for maintenance. Overall fit and finish on German cars, in my experience is greatly superior. I see brand new American and Japanese interiors coming apart at the seams, headliners popping out of place, chinsey plastic knobs breaking and coming off… And stuff like that drives me absolutely nuts.

Ride and handling is also far and above anything Americans or Japanese offer. More than I have worked on any of these cars I have driven and ridden in them. A couple years ago some friends of mine and I were on a little road trip. On the way there I rode in the back seat of one of my friends Accord. When we got there I thought I was going to need a Chiropractor. On the way back I rode in my other friends BMW. The difference is simply night and day.

Oh well, that’s enough of my rant. I’ve just been observing this stuff for over twenty years now, so I’m kind of passionate about it. I’d rather drive a 22 year old German car than a brand new Neon any day of the week.

Automotively speaking, this is the stuff that really does it for me:

Big, slab sided coupes (see the '71 Fury Sport, mid '70s Grandvilles, '76 Eldo, '67 Eldo etc)
Pony car proportions - long hood, forward raked grilles, fastbacks, or notchbacks with short decks. e.g. late 60s Camaro/Mustang/Mopar/AMCs and contemporary Mustang, Camaros
Dropped and chopped late '40s street rods
Early '70s Skylines - way cooler looking than a 2002 IMO.
Art and Science Cadillacs
The first Stingrays, esp blacked out
Ford Fusion - bar none, the best looking contemporary sedan. The grillework is perfect.
Cars need just a little skeeziness in the styling - this is where the refinement of german cars really misses. There’s no dangerous edge. And I totally agree with the poster that just wants a stripped down car without the electronic gizmos.

My dislikes of German cars:
Porsche - They’ve always reminded me of little turtles, and too refined.
BMW - Mostly dull boxes till the '00s, and these days they look semi molten.
Audi - Nice, but in that boring gray suit way. Stupidly located fuel tank lids.
Benz - Similar comments to BMW. Look too much like formalwear to be a cool ride.

As for maintenance, talk to a '89 944S2 owner about “easy” maintenance. Jesus, that thing is one step away from a Jag XKE in ease of maintenance.*

I like old German cars. I had a 914. Old Porsches, Mercedes, BMWs and VWs are great. They were simple. They focused on taking away all the things that a driver doesn’t want to deal with.

BTW, I’m hoping to sell my Miata this spring and find a late '80’s 325i. I wish someone would make that car again:/

*I’m going to explain for the car nerds. XKE clutch changes are reknowned for their complexity. They require complete engine removal and that’s a pain in a Jag. The S2 was a very limited edition 944. Parts are no longer available. A friend had to replace a simple vacuum hose on his. It was a day long job trying to get the old one out and the new one in. This is on top of the engine mind you. It’s just everything is so squeezed together that it’s like threading a needle.

Moreover, Porsche and BMW are both known for doing whacky things. BMW will switch components mid-year. Meaning you need to tell the parts counter that you have one built in September, not August, because they used a different solenoid between those two months. Why? No clue.

Porsche has always loved options too. Cars that could be equipped with LSD or different shocks, different brakes. My buddy’s 944 had Brembo brakes, but he didn’t find out until he tried to change them and the new disks wouldn’t fit. Probably the only 944 that had the stupid option and my buddy got stuck with it. Ugh.

Every time I think of replacing my POS 2002 Ford Focus, I run into this problem. I want a stripped down model with nothing in it, but a sunroof. Every car make wants to give me rain sensing this, park assist, sport buttons, idrive, whatever. I don’t want it!!! Argh!

We’ve touched on these “Minimalistics” before; Bugeyes, Midgets, Fiat 850s, Spitfires, etc. I built, and drove, a Meyers Manx for five years living in Indiana ; rain, snow, freezing weather (it was fitted with the hard top and canvas side curtain option). Of course I was twenty at the time, and a bit more adventurous, but it was fun transportation and I loved the aspect of “nothing more than necessary”. Personally, I think there would be a market for them (regretfully the Feds won’t allow them to be build “completed”).

Bruce later offered another kit car, the Meyers SR (Sports Roadster). For all intent and purposes, the inventor of the “fiberglass dune buggy” genre, his “kits” were well thought out, and the average shade-tree mechanic could easily attain the the level of completion seen in these photos.

And he’s still at it…

Moreover, Porsche and BMW are both known for doing whacky things. BMW will switch components mid-year. Meaning you need to tell the parts counter that you have one built in September, not August, because they used a different solenoid between those two months. Why? No clue.

Whacky, is actually spelled; F-I-A-T

Nice Thread. :wink:
*

BTW, I’m hoping to sell my Miata this spring and find a late '80’s 325i. I wish someone would make that car again:/

Ugghh? Well you know… Till now we were unable to sell my wifes old E30 (320i) because we like it so much, but I
wasn’t aware a car like that would allure a long term Miata owner as the Miata sports a well balanced chassis, a rev happy
engine as well as a soft top. So why the change of mind?

IF talking about the build quality, the fit and finish of BMW as well as the joy of maintanance don’t look at the
early E90/91 models. They started to cut many corners there. (As they did with the E36.) Sometimes the beancouters
try to develop some cost out of the package and it shows when the result is no ZEN garden anymore.

mo-i

P.S.: Try working on a mid 80ies Alfa Romeo. Before they went bust they bought at any supplier who would
deliver to them. Building cars not up to specification but up to chance. The good ones are a dream, still.

I have two reasons:

  1. I want to eventually have kids and I know that the Miata is just going to be a problem when that happens.

  2. The Miata isn’t perfect. I really want to get the bumper painted. The roof might need replacing in a couple years. The transmission synchros were not good when I bought the car and aren’t improving. In other words, if I keep it, I’m dumping $3000 into it. Sadly, the sensible thing to do is just cut my ties now :~(

No E90 for me. I don’t like many post '90 German cars.

Is that a dream list or a list of rides you would buy, or somewhere in the middle?

I think it helps if you separate what is good design from personal taste. I like certain things that I know not to be good design for example, and their are certain things that I can recognize as good design that I do not like.

The BMW 3 series is a good example of the second. It is good a good design, it always has been some sort of variation on good design. Some years were better than others, but they were always good. Now, that said, personally I don’t like it and would never buy it, but I can still respect it as very good.Having driven a few, I totally get why a lot of people love them.

Now, considering this post generated from from the topic discussing things we actually OWN, I based my first post on things I could own and in fact have test driven and priced out. Sure I could have put a 60’s Stingray Split Window Coupe on there… I could have put a polished aluminum Aston Martin DB4 Zagato as well. I love both and both are outside my budget.

But here is where you really lost me, Ford Fusion, and here is where I think you need to separate good design from personal taste. You might like it, but it is so not even close to the best looking contemporary sedan on the market. It is not even the best looking American contemporary sedan on the market. The grille work is far from perfect, it is course at best. The car is better than the Taurus, but not as good as the Focus or Fiesta. I’m surprised you would pick that over the Charger given the rest of your list. It feels American, has a V8, and is fun to toss around the highway. I rent them a lot when I travel. Best contemporary sedan would probably go to a Rolls Royce Ghost. The aluminum hood is hard to beat. Or a Bentley Mulsanne, Aston Martin Rapide, or Maserati Quattroporte.

Overall, the above list reads like that of a 14 year old boy who has never been much outside of Cleveland.

If I were to make my ultimate list, it would be mainly be packed with Italians, a few Brits, some Americans, and maybe a couple of Germans. So I understand them not being at the top of the dream list, but in terms of nearly affordable fun to drive good looking cars, they seem to be winning.

Yo!: I think the new Chrysler 300 nearly the best one can get for a contemporary sedan. The best if adjusted for price.

Ford Fusion is pretty weak, but I like the balls it took to do that grille. It wasn’t safe. Then again, Ford has always been willing to pitch a curve ball into a mainstream model.

Is that a dream list or a list of rides you would buy, or somewhere in the middle?

It’s rides with a great aesthetic sensibility. Some of them, I am sure, are garbage to drive.

The BMW 3 series is a good example of the second. It is good a good design, it always has been some sort of variation on good design. Some years were better than others, but they were always good. Now, that said, personally I don’t like it and would never buy it, but I can still respect it as very good.Having driven a few, I totally get why a lot of people love them.

To my eye the 3 is pretty average stuff, yet also a bit overcooked. I think saying it’s always been good design is a stretch. It has always looked like a bmw; some years have been better than others, some have been pretty horrific (early '80s?). Maybe I am alone on this, but a car needs to elicit a strong visceral response when you look at it - I don’t it here. BMW could stand to walk away from the split grille and reflecting headlights, as iconic and central to their brand as they are, for a couple years and see what happens - it totally straightjackets their styling. While there is something to be said for visual brand consistency, I think BMW and Audi go way overboard in this respect.

But here is where you really lost me, Ford Fusion, and here is where I think you need to separate good design from personal taste. You might like it, but it is so not even close to the best looking contemporary sedan on the market. It is not even the best looking American contemporary sedan on the market. The grille work is far from perfect, it is course at best. The car is better than the Taurus, but not as good as the Focus or Fiesta. I’m surprised you would pick that over the Charger given the rest of your list. It feels American, has a V8, and is fun to toss around the highway. I rent them a lot when I travel. Best contemporary sedan would probably go to a Rolls Royce Ghost. The aluminum hood is hard to beat. Or a Bentley Mulsanne, Aston Martin Rapide, or Maserati Quattroporte.

The Fusion has easily one of the 2 or 3 coolest grilles of the past decade and doesn’t have a bad view - for the sedan category (which is usually pretty sleepy) it is a fine looking machine. Charger could have been cool, but the standard Dodge grillework is a poor fit. Would have been better by far to go the Challenger route, and more fitting of the model. But I’m sure it’s good to drive. Rolls/Bentley - I appreciate their quirkiness but that jewelry look isn’t my thing at all. You and I obviously have very different taste, especially in sports cars.

Overall, the above list reads like that of a 14 year old boy who has never been much outside of Cleveland.

Maybe, but no shame in that.

We’re talking about this grill, right?

Compared to the Rolls?

The Rolls is iconic. In a line up of 50 grills without badges or headlights, could you pick the Fusion before the Rolls?

Nurb

First, My response was in reply to the idea that the Fusion is the best looking sedan. A rather audacious statement.

Second, isolating an element like that is like looking at a rather I attractive person and saying she has a beautiful nose, a little futile.

The Fusion has nice linework and surfaces inside a plain outline, and it looks like the production designers really gave a s*** for the execution. Can’t say that about most other sedans, Euro or not.

There’s something about those 2002-2004 A4’s that still hurts me someplace, esp in blue V8 trim. The newest CTS-V is spot on as well. Seems like it takes a few years and facelifts for some cars to “ripen” and sort out the details.