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Postby Greenman » April 21st, 2008, 12:53 pm

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I'm getting a kick out of this thread, but Zippy i'm confused, clear this up for me. Why do you care so much about what happens in the future to our planet if you aren't planning on have children that will see that future? What then does it matter to you as you will not live forever? If you honestly care you wouldn't be talking about what action should be taken, you'd actually be taking action, and arguing on a message board isn't taking action. I agree with some folks that you are simply attacking a type of lifestyle that you don't agree with. I don't agree with it either, but why bother? In your mind you're a "thinker" and thus you feel that you are already better than these breeders and their ego-boosters. Another is this, those lifestyles you're bashing are not "problems" that need solving, they're people, and you'll get far more positive results by inspiring people to change rather than forcing them to conform to population control. Are there alot of people out there that just live on auto-pilot, buy what's being sold, and live a routine? Yes. You should pity, not blame them, as they fail to recognize their own potential. Start there.

Postby Testudo Liberalis » April 21st, 2008, 1:08 pm


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melovescookies:

" ...I am sure if offered a choice..."

How do people not have a choice? Are you talking about people or protozoa?

Postby jon_winebrenner » April 21st, 2008, 1:20 pm

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Testudo Liberalis wrote:melovescookies:

" ...I am sure if offered a choice..."

How do people not have a choice? Are you talking about people or protozoa?


Are you more interested in taking pot shots, or taking part in a discussion?

If you've been to any country where poverty is rampant, and there is virtually no birth control, and lacking medical conditions making abortion a very deadly opition, many women don't have a choice. Having 7 children for the women MLCookies is talking about is part of living in a patriarchal society that shows little to no respect for women('s rights).

Postby zippyflounder » April 21st, 2008, 1:38 pm


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Greenman wrote:I'm getting a kick out of this thread, but Zippy i'm confused, clear this up for me. Why do you care so much about what happens in the future to our planet if you aren't planning on have children that will see that future? What then does it matter to you as you will not live forever? If you honestly care you wouldn't be talking about what action should be taken, you'd actually be taking action, and arguing on a message board isn't taking action. I agree with some folks that you are simply attacking a type of lifestyle that you don't agree with. I don't agree with it either, but why bother? In your mind you're a "thinker" and thus you feel that you are already better than these breeders and their ego-boosters. Another is this, those lifestyles you're bashing are not "problems" that need solving, they're people, and you'll get far more positive results by inspiring people to change rather than forcing them to conform to population control. Are there alot of people out there that just live on auto-pilot, buy what's being sold, and live a routine? Yes. You should pity, not blame them, as they fail to recognize their own potential. Start there.

Why do i care, a number of reasons from the selfish, to the sublime. Lets take the selfish ones first, I am good for another 40/50 years given my genetics with out any major improvement in health care so lots of stuff can happen that not going to be fun to live through with out some damage control. I have family, they have kids some of whom I am very close to and figure that I might as well do what I can to make things better for them. There is a part of some of us that just hate to see things get wasted, fucked up or abused, call it a caregiver mentality if you will.
Am I bashing life styles, perhaps as a way of lighting a fire of controversy, the core element is thinking about actions and drives at their core. I am all for total cost pricing for all resorces, and their by their consumption and that would include removing tax credits for having children. I am all for gas prices over 8 bucks a gallon, tax the shit out of it like booze and tobacco but use that money to good purpose. Your so right most people just go auto pilot.
Oh I took and still am taking action, the "earth" movement started long ago and I was a part of it then and still am. I live a low impact life have for a long time, its also a cost effective life that allows some pretty nice things, not quanity but quality.

It would be political insanity to propose pop contol (hence it working in china) because it is a major hot button and has been sense the hellnistc times but none the less its a big concern and a point of action. How do you convince people, well just as with milage, and oil conservation it comes down to $ at first then perceptions, $ allways works though. In many classic SciFi books population is a issue where lotteries were used to allow a couple to have a child, or if by demonstration of some extreme abilty or merritorious service. These concerns have been on the radar and "disscussed" for 40 years or so in that arena as well as more formal ones both trying to enlighten folks.
Yes the auto pilots, socical status, bio empertive they are strong but can only be counterd by sticking your chin out and asking the question out loud "why are you doing that?".

ps....melovescookies...good on you.

Postby yo » April 21st, 2008, 1:52 pm

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Greenman wrote:Zippy i'm confused, clear this up for me. Why do you care so much about what happens in the future to our planet if you aren't planning on have children that will see that future?


Is that the only reason most people care?

That is like being good out fear some higher power is watching. We should want to do the right thing for the pure reason that it is the right thing, not for the promise of an afterlife, or some rosy, problem free future for the kids... I know, too idealistic...

The "our lives will be hard no matter what, but sacrifice, do everything your told and work hard for the environment and make a perfect tomorrow for the children" is getting scarily close to the religious dogma of "your life on earth will be hard no matter what, but sacrifice, do everything your told and work hard for the King and you will be rewarded in the afterlife"

Postby zippyflounder » April 21st, 2008, 2:20 pm


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looks like we got moved to the back pages, guess big questions and discussion are not "general" enough...bummer.

Postby Impatient Pete » April 21st, 2008, 3:20 pm


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I'm loving all of the sanctimonious "I wanted children but I'm not going to have them because I just care so much about the planet" coming from the verte garde.

Pete

Postby zippyflounder » April 21st, 2008, 4:23 pm


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Impatient Pete wrote:I'm loving all of the sanctimonious "I wanted children but I'm not going to have them because I just care so much about the planet" coming from the verte garde.

Pete
Never said i wanted them, was ambivilant about having them, however that did allow me to think it through.

Postby Greenman » April 21st, 2008, 4:29 pm

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yo wrote:
Greenman wrote:Zippy i'm confused, clear this up for me. Why do you care so much about what happens in the future to our planet if you aren't planning on have children that will see that future?


Is that the only reason most people care?


I posed that question to Zippy to hear what was really driving his seeming angst, of course I don't believe children are the only reason to do the right thing, nor for a promise of afterlife or any of that. Clearly, lots of people with children couldn't give a rat's ass what the planet will be like for them in 50 years, and many people without do care.

Postby zippyflounder » April 21st, 2008, 5:22 pm


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Greenman wrote:
yo wrote:
Greenman wrote:Zippy i'm confused, clear this up for me. Why do you care so much about what happens in the future to our planet if you aren't planning on have children that will see that future?


Is that the only reason most people care?


I posed that question to Zippy to hear what was really driving his seeming angst, of course I don't believe children are the only reason to do the right thing, nor for a promise of afterlife or any of that. Clearly, lots of people with children couldn't give a rat's ass what the planet will be like for them in 50 years, and many people without do care.
I took it that way green, hopefully my answer clears up some of the haze.

Postby yo » April 21st, 2008, 7:18 pm

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Greenman wrote:... of course I don't believe children are the only reason to do the right thing, nor for a promise of afterlife or any of that. Clearly, lots of people with children couldn't give a rat's ass what the planet will be like for them in 50 years, and many people without do care.


Cool.

Postby Testudo Liberalis » April 22nd, 2008, 8:59 am


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ip,

"Are you more interested in taking pot shots, or taking part in a discussion? "

It's interesting, from reading this thread, what passes for discussion. Sarcastic one liners about people with families and sanctimonious prattle about 'mindless breeders' makes up the bulk of this discussion. I take it you really just disagree with my position.

My contention with this 'discussion' is the implication that people's choices are somehow invalid if they have different values or criteria than the anointed posters here. There's nothing subtle about zippy's opinion on this.

It's comments like these from melovescookies that reveal a certain arrogance toward people in the developing world,

"It’s difficult to think of a solution for overpopulated countries, but I’d say investing into education, easily available birth control (very few women in the world truly love, you know, giving birth 7 times, and I am sure if offered a choice, they wouldn’t) might help."

That some people may make choices different than melovescookies seems to be incomprehensible. For some people, those from conservative religions or non-western/modern communities, having a family is a priority. Even having a dreaded patriarchy may be part of a culture they are familiar with, a culture they like and one that works for them. And maybe not, but the point is, I wouldn't presume to speak for them and impose my standards upon them as if they are subhuman animals that need the enlightened westerner to care for them.

The caricature zippy rattles on about with the eight kids and gas-guzzling car has plenty of access to education and birth control methods, so the idea that that is the problem is naive.

The problem is not that people have too many children, the problem is not overpopulation. The problem is a political problem, it's a resource distribution problem and above all it's a problem of poverty. Manhattan seems to handle population density quite well while some cities in the developing world do not. This being the case, sheer number of people is not the decisive factor. What then are the factors? Freedom of mobility, economic policies that encourage development and private property.

Again, this is assuming we actually care about people's quality of life. I get the distinct impression that a lot of the population control advocates motivation is either a green version of the 'white man's burden', which I find insidious or just an aesthetic tantrum.

Potshots indeed.

Postby melovescookies » April 22nd, 2008, 10:39 am

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Well, I agree, here. We’re all talking here from a privileged position and it’s a very “white man” (I am not assuming we’re all white and men here, I am talking about the stereotype of position of power) thing to do to tell the rest of the world how to live. But I am pretty sure nobody assumed they were “subhuman animals” once. Way to put words in my mouth for the sake of your argument. That’s just offensive.

Education increases quality of life, nobody can argue about that, is that such an awful thing to suggest? To offer? Is it awful to offer an option of birthcontrol? Actually giving people *gasp* more choices?! The very thing you are arguing for?

Lack of education and control of reproductive rights by patriarchy has been holding women back, so for us to suggest to let people run along w/ abuse of women for not to offend certain patriarchic ways is a flawed argument.

We’re talking about “overpopulation” from a “green” perspective, but for me it is also a feminist issue.
Women and children are affected the most by poverty (aka your “wealth distribution”). Education and abandoning rabid patriarchy is usually the quickest way to increase women’s quality of life. Stronger independent women = less babies, more educated work force.

Zippy’s caricature is what it is a caricature, an exaggeration of a detail, a small part. Majority of people in the USA do use a lot more resources than the rest of the world, but they are not The Duggers. I think we all get that.

Postby Testudo Liberalis » April 22nd, 2008, 12:41 pm


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melovescookies,

First off, I appreciate your thoughtful and articulate response. Of course the more options/education the better, I think we can all agree on that. My reaction is primarily to the way the whole thread started, that the damage to the environment makes a strong case for population control. It is my opinion that environmental issues will be the justification du jour for totalitarianism, as have been religion and scientism in the past centuries.

I also believe it's good practice to advocate the expansion of individuals rights and opportunities, not limit them. It's frightening to hear the opposite.

As far as putting words in people's mouths, this would be a good example,

"so for us to suggest to let people run along w/ abuse of women for not to offend certain patriarchic ways is a flawed argument."

Fortunately no one actually made that argument. It should go without saying that there is a lot of room between abuse of women and cultural pressure from a traditionally patriarchal society to bear children.

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