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Postby zippyflounder » March 2nd, 2008, 6:50 pm


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nerdtronic wrote:zippyflounder, i totally feel where you are coming from.

the talk to action ratio i see is extremely frustrating (including/especially from myself). however, i don't see the point of your original post. are you saying we should just keep on doing whatever because nothing's really going to change anyway?

conversely, do you think there is a way for designers to fight against the culture of consumption, or do you think that we are dependant on it for our livelihoods?

and fyi, i was nothing in the 70s.

consumption is part of our socicalogical metric, even in primiative cultures status is determined by possessions and status brings all the goodies. Can designers do much about it, not realy, we are just feeding the monster the only way to combat it, is to not "consume" or consume rationaly. The other alterntive is just to be honnest, and say "screw green" its just a moving target and gimme the stuff I want. Is there a middle point, sure but damn few people are going to go through (or are able)and determing total life cycle cost of a product. Will things get better, sure and for a simple reason, money. With oil getting over 100 a gallon it makes all sorts of things profitable like recycling plastic, tires, etc wind farms heluim 3 fusion the list goes on, where before these was just "green", now there be bucks in them. Profit will allways outstrip green any day and profit lets you buy more STUFF. In the end though, its kinda simple, more people wanting more "stuff" and only so much materials for making stuff out of...something is going to go BOING. When I started out I wanted to design and build stuff that people would have, use, enjoy for a life time...well I was a young fool as that is NOT how people are, hell even the crown jewles get broke up and re set every few generations. If you want to be stand up, design crap that can be and WILL be recycled (profitably) and that dont mean, shoes, cellphones, and the like. To be that type of designer you have to be not only willing but excited to work with engineers and fianice guys, not looking at them as "buzz killers". Lets face it lots of "buzz" products just end up in the land fill in 18 months, because that buzz wears off fast. No reason to be too bummed, if oil goes to 150 a barrel people will start mining land fills for the recyclables, just better hope your not one of the miners.

Postby Mr-914 » March 2nd, 2008, 9:46 pm

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I think you are generalizing. Green issues pop up every decade or so, but are all grouped together in people's mind.

1. '70's: smog. Smog was caused particulates in exhaust. Regulations were passed to force emissions control equipment on everything that emitted. Today, the problem is smaller, although rising again because of larger populations contributing to the effect.

2. '80's: Acid rain. I remember this, because I remember as a child watching something about acid rain destroying German forests. This was caused by emissions and chemicals being released into the atmosphere. Again, the problem is smaller today because of emissions control regulations.

3. '80's: ozone layer. The ozone layer was and is thinning. However, the biggest threat, CFCs, have been nearly eliminated from use. The famous ozone hole over anarctica is predicted to be closed by 2050 or thereabouts.

These are the real "green" trends that I think zippy is talking about. The reason they get less press is because they were or are solved. Now we have a new threat, and hopefully the regulation will follow.

Postby zippyflounder » March 3rd, 2008, 12:12 am


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Mr-914 wrote:I think you are generalizing. Green issues pop up every decade or so, but are all grouped together in people's mind.

1. '70's: smog. Smog was caused particulates in exhaust. Regulations were passed to force emissions control equipment on everything that emitted. Today, the problem is smaller, although rising again because of larger populations contributing to the effect.

2. '80's: Acid rain. I remember this, because I remember as a child watching something about acid rain destroying German forests. This was caused by emissions and chemicals being released into the atmosphere. Again, the problem is smaller today because of emissions control regulations.

3. '80's: ozone layer. The ozone layer was and is thinning. However, the biggest threat, CFCs, have been nearly eliminated from use. The famous ozone hole over anarctica is predicted to be closed by 2050 or thereabouts.

These are the real "green" trends that I think zippy is talking about. The reason they get less press is because they were or are solved. Now we have a new threat, and hopefully the regulation will follow.

The question is will china regulate? The bigger issue is this, more people wanting more...period.

Postby Mr-914 » March 3rd, 2008, 10:26 am

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China is regulating:

1. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/feb/27/china.plasticbags

It comes less than two months after the state banned production of ultra-thin bags and ordered supermarkets to stop giving away free carriers from June 1.


2. A few years ago China upgraded it's car pollution standards to one generation behind the US and Europe.

3. The three gorges dam will replace 31 million tons of coal consumption. China is looking to build infrastructure to replace their dirtiest technologies.

They have a way to go, but they advancing more quickly than we did.

Postby NURB » March 3rd, 2008, 11:02 am

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Timf's threadregarding China's crackdown on manufacturing practices seems to touch on this as well. Some very good posts if you haven't seen it yet.

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